Siege Beta: guide/explanation (wip)

[FleetFox]

I appreciate effort you guys put into this game mode, but Conquest idea just don't fit Siege at all.

Let's think a while about original Conquest game mode, made by Taleworlds (and available to use in cRPG without any effort at all):
- Both teams start with some specific points (let's say 300 points)
- There are 5 (or less) flags on the map
- When game starts, both teams has 1 flag on their side, all other flags are neutral
- Every team can capture any flag on the map
- Captured flag takes 1 point per second from enemy team points
- Team which first get 0 points, loses
In original Conquest game mode, all sides has equal chances, everything is easy to understand and works briliantly.

The problem with current cRPG Conquest-Siege is, it's impossible to balance it. It's not about making defenders respawn time longer. You can't balance this mode well, because number of players will be different all the time (the more players, the harder it will be to take flag for attackers - the less players, the harder it will be to defend the flags for defenders). You also can't balance it because every map is different, some respawn time settings will work on one map, but won't work on the other.

I don't really understand why didn't you use original Conquest game mode and add few features there (like map preview, respawn point chosing, flag markers etc). That would be balanced by itself, because there would be no "defenders" and "attackers", both teams would have equal chances to get flags.
Don't get me wrong, I really appreciate your work, but I just don't understand why to complicate things by trying to merge Siege and Conquest into one mode, when you could just tweak native Conquest game mode. Less work and it would be balanced by default, objectives would be same for both teams (control more flags than enemy over time). I think it would be also funnier and more tactical. You don't have to take specific flag in original Conquest, you don't need to fight over one flag all the time, which is just boring, especially on Siege maps (you need to use same corridols/alleys all over again to get into that specific flag, which is of course full of defenders).

I would prefer to see original Conquest game mode tweaked for cRPG instead of merged Conquest-Siege thing we have now.

You make some good points Angie! However for me I'm happy the Siege setting has been used, imo its great fun running around fighting in streets and on castle walls. As to the exp system, I have on good authority that the multiplier will soon be cut from cRPG.

[Fips]

Yes, Angie has some good points.

But siege was NEVER really balanced if there are less than...let's say 30 players. And conquest won't be as well. But that doesn't matter really, because when the player-numbers drops below some point where it gets unbalanced it's not that much fun anymore anyway. As long as it's balanced when the server is quite populated, i'm fine with it.

[Phew]

Angellore makes very solid points. Make it a true conquest mode, and map balance is no longer an issue. Just have to make sure that the team balance algorithm is good!

[Tydeus]

i still don't use WSE2 regularly like others too, as it doesn't play always well with strategus. It seems to hinder you to connect to strategus battles. ATM when someone has problems connecting to strat battle one of the first questions people ask is, do you have WSE2 enabled, if yes disable try again.

Yes, and if you simply restarted your client but left wse2 enabled, you'd still be able to connect to the servers. It's not disabling wse2 that fixes it, it's simply the client restart.

[Casimir]

Western walls need to be more attacker friendly, that is all.

[kinngrimm]

Yes, and if you simply restarted your client but left wse2 enabled, you'd still be able to connect to the servers. It's not disabling wse2 that fixes it, it's simply the client restart.

i don't think so, i restarted client several times with WSE2 enabled, and couldn't join strategus, i will try again, i just enabled it again and will keep trying using it in strategus battles, but 2-3 weeks back when i tested it the only solution was disabling WSE2, so this but may have changed with recent patches, will see.

[Lt_Anders]

i don't think so, i restarted client several times with WSE2 enabled, and couldn't join strategus, i will try again, i just enabled it again and will keep trying using it in strategus battles, but 2-3 weeks back when i tested it the only solution was disabling WSE2, so this but may have changed with recent patches, will see.

I have never had problems in strat battles with it. In fact, I have a significant advantage as most people don't use it.

[Micah]

Afterall, this "staged conquer-mode" is a very nice thing , and i will propably play it quite a bit if im bored of battle ;)
Anyhow, i do gonna have to agree with angelore here, in that point, that i was thinking of a more "basic" conquer mode with more back and forth ,recapturing flags possible, long-struggle-terrritory-battle with captured flags representing the multiplyer bonus(aka income), unlike this extended siege version right now ...

However i do not agree with angelore in the point that basic conquer/take-and-hold is really "ballancing itself" in terms of game-fun--- i only think of horrible base-rape scenarios in most of games like battlefield and co. which would be avoided with the "attacker-defender" version~

Thanks Ozin for this great effort and awesome and impressive new mode for us =D

[Angellore]

You make some good points Angie! However for me I'm happy the Siege setting has been used, imo its great fun running around fighting in streets and on castle walls. As to the exp system, I have on good authority that the multiplier will soon be cut from cRPG.

Yeah, overal conquest idea is great for me as well, I loved that game mode in Warband native. I'm just not happy about splitting teams in cRPG to attacking/defending ones. Original conquest has 2 teams, both can capture flags, both can do that in any order they like to (so you have to play smart and protect yours or attack enemy flags, depending on situation). With original conquest you can still make town-like maps or even inside castles maps, there's no reason not to do so.
I just don't see the point to split teams to attacking and defending ones. It just takes whole tactics away, the less flags defenders has, the more random killing current Conquest-Siege becomes.

However i do not agree with angelore in the point that basic conquer/take-and-hold is really "ballancing itself" in terms of game-fun--- i only think of horrible base-rape scenarios in most of games like battlefield and co. which would be avoided with the "attacker-defender" version~

I'm pretty sure both teams with same rules (original Conquest) will always be much more balanced than teams tasks splitted to "defend at least one flag" and "conquer all flags on map".
I don't really understand your point of view about "base-rape scenarios", since that's exactly what new Conquest-Siege has, especially with 1 flag left for defenders. You can't do anything more than charge the last flag as attacker and defend last respawn as defender, you just aren't allowed to do anything else.
In original Conquest, if one flag is heavy guarded by enemies, that means other flags don't have proper defence (so you can take them easily). So original Conquest is much more about tactics, not about defending one flag with whole team. And that's how I see current Conquest-Siege.

Edit: Of course this element (defending the last flag) is part of Siege game mode. That's why I wrote in previous post I don't understand mixing Conquest and Siege game modes. It would be much better imo to keep original Conquest idea, without the Siege part.
Also, original Conquest round lasts 5-10 minutes (depending from starting points set by admin), so there would be no problems with multi and no more 30 minutes long rounds.

[zagibu]

I don't see why the native conquest mode couldn't get into cRPG in addition to this new siege mode. It's different enough, I think. Meanwhile, the majority of siege maps will still be classic siege maps with only 1 flag (I see no reason to remove those maps). I don't think the siege server will fill up quickly with the new type of maps, because they seem pretty difficult to make. I mean, even regular siege maps are difficult to balance, which is why there are only a handful that actually work well.

[kinngrimm]

I don't see why the native conquest mode couldn't get into cRPG in addition to this new siege mode.....

there are only so many active players at any given point in time.
Devide them by more servers and people may get the subjective feeling there is even less going on.

[Teeth]

How long until instructions for mappers? 

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[The_Bloody_Nine]

how do ballistas work?

[Ozin]

Map makers' guide

[Teeth]

Map makers' guide

Damn, that was quick.