Why nerf Heavy Throwing Axes? Tweak the stat change or go back to 3 ammo.

[Zlisch_The_Butcher]

Unbelievable that a thrower defends a throwing axe nerf. I would be stupid if i prefered 8 ammo cut damage axes which have much slower missile speed instead of using 16 ammo pierce damage throwing spears which fly faster. Do you want to know what's OP? 2h. And I have no problem with it, but when they make throwing axes useless, I have.

Pro tip: Flying slower isn't a disadvantage, if your projectile is flying downwards you'll get a way higher speed bonus with axes than spears...

[Digglez]

Personally, I'm fine with fewer people using the HTA, it was already used by far too many people based upon the December usage statistics. The more important question that I'm interested in, is how does the HTA currently compare to the normal throwing axe, and the normal throwing axe compared to the Francisca.

So instead of giving an incentive to use some other throwing weapons, you choose to nerf the popular one?  Nerfing is just sign of poor game design.

Why did heavy bastard & longsword get buffs?  By your logic, they were already heavily used, why didnt they get nerfed too?

You know why noone uses franciscas or regular throwing axes? Because they fucking blow stat wise, and the spear type ones like jav/spears also suck pretty bad too...which is why noone ever used them either.

[DrTaco]

So instead of giving an incentive to use some other throwing weapons, you choose to nerf the popular one?  Nerfing is just sign of poor game design.

Why did heavy bastard & longsword get buffs?  By your logic, they were already heavily used, why didnt they get nerfed too?

You know why noone uses franciscas or regular throwing axes? Because they fucking blow stat wise, and the spear type ones like jav/spears also suck pretty bad too...which is why noone ever used them either.

Well, from his profile picture we can assume he's the reasoning behind the bastard and longsword buffs, and the Axes nerf. And any other ranged nerf we can think of.

[Phew]

You know why noone uses franciscas or regular throwing axes? Because they fucking blow stat wise, and the spear type ones like jav/spears also suck pretty bad too...which is why noone ever used them either.

I posted this a few months ago, but I'll repost because it's relevant:

I'll assume 5 power throw, 100 wpf (typical hybrid thrower stats), against a target with 50 armor (my guess of the average body armor in crpg right now).

Damage per stack (value if loomed to +3 shown in parentheses):
Francisca: 46 (66)
Throwing axes: 63 (77)
Heavy throwing axes: 61 (70)
Throwing hammer: 66 (81)
War Darts: 66 (99)
Jarid: 93 (108)

So it's pretty clear why no one uses any of the throwing axes; they all have much lower damage per stack than Jarids.

[F i n]

Throwing axes have a 2nd weaponmode thats much more effective than any other in the game.

prenerf they were overpowered - and im saying that as a thrower using them.

[Phew]

Throwing axes have a 2nd weaponmode thats much more effective than any other in the game.

prenerf they were overpowered - and im saying that as a thrower using them.

Bec de Corbin and Broad 1h Battle Axe have secondary modes with top-tier stats, but they pay virtually no penalty in the stats of their primary mode. Heavy throwing axes pay about a 35% penalty in damage per stack vs Jarids. That's steep for a secondary mode that while decent, is still very weak compared to the top-tier 1h axes (53 reach vs. 73 reach, 32 dmg vs. 35 dmg).

[Huscarlton_Banks]

I posted this a few months ago, but I'll repost because it's relevant:
-snip-

Are those maximum values, or do they have speed bonuses added to them?

I'm not getting anywhere near the same numbers.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ag5R9vD8esLKdEtZczR1YjdpQlkxOTB4LTBkMjJpckE#gid=7

[Vodner]

And any other ranged nerf we can think of.

Like that time he suggested a buff to unloomed archery, and it went through.

I would be stupid if i prefered 8 ammo cut damage axes which have much slower missile speed instead of using 16 ammo pierce damage throwing spears which fly faster.

Having a slow projectile is an advantage, if you are trying to increase your damage via speed bonus.

[Phew]

Are those maximum values, or do they have speed bonuses added to them?

I'm not getting anywhere near the same numbers.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ag5R9vD8esLKdEtZczR1YjdpQlkxOTB4LTBkMjJpckE#gid=7

Those numbers were from espu's old calculator, which had outdated soak/reduce formulas and I think assumed +25% dmg due to hold/speed bonus. The situation is even more grim with your sheet; 100 wpf/5 PT against 50 armor yields 44 dmg per stack for HTA and 90 dmg per stack for Jarids.

Huscarlton_Banks; are you planning on becoming involved in cRPG development?

[Huscarlton_Banks]

I have no such plans (because lazy), and cRPG probably has more experienced modders lined up for the opportunity.

I have a hard time getting used to the axe throwing animation, it feels like there's a weird delay to it when I spend a lot of time beforehand playing with javelin type throwables.

At least heavy throwing axes smash shields nicely.

[dontgothere]

new idea: give the axe line better melee speeds and lower weights, and leave the ammo count as it is, and give them a higher damage bonus against shields if possible; then give throwing lances a chance to crushthru tied to PT-over-requirement to round out the jarids-hta-lance balance.
would prefer more tweaks to hybrid-vs-pure balance too but i'd still prefer to see axes and lances get buffed against jarids than for jarids to get nerfed

[Penitent]

new idea: give the axe line better melee speeds and lower weights, and leave the ammo count as it is, and give them a higher damage bonus against shields if possible; then give throwing lances a chance to crushthru tied to PT-over-requirement to round out the jarids-hta-lance balance.
would prefer more tweaks to hybrid-vs-pure balance too but i'd still prefer to see axes and lances get buffed against jarids than for jarids to get nerfed

This would work.  Giving throwing axes slightly better melee ability (speed mostly) would balance it out a bit better.

[DumpsterNerd]

So, this is a pretty touchy spot (touchy because I have a MW HTA sitting useless in the stash   ) for me, but I think the most evident point that the nerf was too hard is this:  No one wants MW heavy throwing axes anymore.  Not on the marketplace, not anywhere.  They hold no value.  It's pretty obvious a nerf was too harsh when the item lost all its market value.  If you think of a MW item as a stock, people are literally saying 'I wouldn't invest in that, because it wont net me the returns jarids or XYZ would'. 

Prenerf, MW JARIDS for MW HTA straight up was a pretty 'fair' trade.  Usually you had to add cash on the jarid side cause everyone and their brother's uncle was throwing HTAs.  After coming back from a pretty long break, I see this nerf, and I tried to put MW HTA up for HTA + 100k for jarids.  No takers in 2 weeks.  I finally just bought the jarids and now have useless HTAs.

I think the issue is that throwing really needs some sort of complete overhaul (probably reconsider a lot of weapons damage vs ammo capacities). There are a lot of similar throwing weapons that just don't make sense, so I understand the justification to nerf HTAs; however, I think it was too much.  Pre nerf (at least after the throwing rebuff on armor soak) there was no reason not to use them, especially if compared to another throwing axe.  Now, there is no reason TO use them. 

They're decent in melee, but you have to rely on axe crappy range, and other than to pop shields, they just weren't useful.  I find a throwing lance is far better in almost every category except vs shielders now.


I think the best change to the entire axe line would be this:

+1 ammo at masterwork.  That way, the MW HTA returns to 3 ammo at masterwork, and it has boss damage (albeit cut).  This serves to differentiate the axe line from the spear line even more, because spears would NOT receive the additional ammo, thus closing the gap in a stack vs stack damage comparison. 

I'm not sure how the damage crunch would come out, I don't think that puts HTAs close to jarids against 50+ armor, but I'm ok with that.  Jarids should be tin can openers.  Throwing axes should be for lower armored targets. 

[Phew]

I'm not sure how the damage crunch would come out, I don't think that puts HTAs close to jarids against 50+ armor, but I'm ok with that.  Jarids should be tin can openers.  Throwing axes should be for lower armored targets.

Yeah, right now a stack of HTA does 22% less damage against a naked player than a stack of jarids. That's pathetic, and explains why no one wants HTAs any more.

[Kampfkarotte]

  Make HTA 3 ammo again.