New shields: Too many HP?

[Ujin]

Ujin, a lot of the new stuff is obviously unbalanced.

The 1h swords, the new mace (30 thust dmg, wtf?), the Triangle shield being absurdly fast for such a heavy shield (a 'convenient' 97 speed for hitting 100 speed fully loomed), the Phyrgian helmet being a smudge lighter than all the other helmets of it's armor value, the Hand Pavise being quite clearly the best shield overall...

All of the stuff is either absolute top-tier or simply overpowered. Considering the best new gear seems to be mostly Byz themed it's no wonder people are getting a bit pissed off.

Hope they fix it soon, because quite frankly I haven't seen anything like this before (new items are usually pretty toned down).

A better comparison of shields:

Oh you mean like that retarded  9th century "nordic" Gjermundbu Helmet that got more head armor than the 15th century Byz helmets in the last item patch ? I never denied some of the new items are op in stats, i just don't want people to think that it's the evil Byzantium paying admins to make OP items for their roleplay reasons, which is a retarded statement even if meant to be a joke. 3 of the new REALLy GOOD (to say the least ) shields are not byzantine.

And out of the 3 new byzantine weapons only paramerion needs tweaking balance wise. The mace is balanced very nicely (the pierce dmg is a website typo), it's hard to block but it's light (nearly no KD) and mediocre damage. The spathion ... we'll see what they do with the 0 slot system, personally they could've done the same with the long/knightly arming sword and i couldn't care less, as long as the archers stop running.

 Paramerion - well, i wrote in another topioc what can be changed to make it balanced but still keep it as a competetive top tier 1h sword.

[Dezilagel]

Oh you mean like that retarded  9th century "nordic" Gjermundbu Helmet that got more head armor than the 15th century Byz helmets in the last item patch?

GAME BALANCE

They're balanced stat/weight wise with the other helmets.

And what I wrote was only a very minor thing, but it's still an annoyance considering all the other bullshit going on.

I never denied some of the new items are op in stats, i just don't want people to think that it's the evil Byzantium paying admins to make OP items for their roleplay reasons, which is a retarded statement even if meant to be a joke. 3 of the new REALLy GOOD (to say the least ) shields are not byzantine.

That's not what I'm saying. I'm just saying that people should be legitimately pissed off at all these item inbalances.

And you are being really defensive about it all, which no doubt triggers people (including me).

And out of the 3 new byzantine weapons only paramerion needs tweaking balance wise.

Eh.

The mace is balanced very nicely (the pierce dmg is a website typo), it's hard to block but it's light (nearly no KD) and mediocre damage.

Let's see: It's a little longer than most maces (VERY important, there's a reason the Military Hammer is so popular), it's average in weight (same as Iberian i.e. tons of KD's because 1h are weird in that aspect), and 27 blunt is medium-high damage in comparison to other maces. If the ridiculous thrust is indeed a typo, then it's not blatantly overpowered, but certainly absolute top-tier. (Oh, and if it's actually got a thrust, then that's a pretty big bonus as well, which in my book would put it into OP territory unless absolutely abysmal damage.).

The spathion ... we'll see what they do with the 0 slot system, personally they could've done the same with the long/knightly arming sword and i couldn't care less, as long as the archers stop running.

While I share your hopes for less running archers, it doesn't change the fact that it's blatantly OP.

Paramerion - well, i wrote in another topioc what can be changed to make it balanced but still keep it as a competetive top tier 1h sword.

Just read it, and to be honest your suggestions would keep the sword OP (basically a slightly better NCS). To be honest here Ujin, to me it looks an awful lot like you just want to have a really powerful sword for personal use.

[Ujin]

GAME BALANCE

Eh.

Let's see: It's a little longer than most maces (VERY important, there's a reason the Military Hammer is so popular), it's average in weight (same as Iberian i.e. tons of KD's because 1h are weird in that aspect), and 27 blunt is medium-high damage in comparison to other maces. If the ridiculous thrust is indeed a typo, then it's not blatantly overpowered, but certainly absolute top-tier. (Oh, and if it's actually got a thrust, then that's a pretty big bonus as well, which in my book would put it into OP territory unless absolutely abysmal damage.).

While I share your hopes for less running archers, it doesn't change the fact that it's blatantly OP.

Just read it, and to be honest your suggestions would keep the sword OP (basically a slightly better NCS). To be honest here Ujin, to me it looks an awful lot like you just want to have a really powerful sword for personal use.

Have you even played the game since the patch ?  You don't know about the mace (which can be called "good" at best), you have no clue about 1h balance (sorry), yet you keep arguing with me on the forum about things you don't even fully know about yet .

If spathion's purpose is to be the best archer side weapon in the game - i don't mind. Like i said i couldn't care less if it was any other top-tier sword in it's place. As long as it's not better than NCS , i wouldn't call it OP. Don't forget it's meant to be a side weapon, for 10k that's a pretty expensive side weapon.  I'd even give the damn buggers a 0 slot medium mace (like iberian) just so they stop running  .

 Interestingly enough many other 1handers have already agreed with my suggestions for paramerion balance, but go on, keep your conspiracy theory if it suits you. Following your logic the Arab. Cav Sword is a "slightly better NCS".

[Pentecost]

I agree with Phew that the stats on the new shields seem to have been concocted by someone who probably doesn't play a shielder with any frequency, if at all. I like that there's new stuff to try, but some of it really needs tweaking in order to be balanced correctly with everything else. These are my proposed stats:

Hand Pavise Shield
weight: 5
body armor: 7
difficulty: 4
hit points: 411
speed rating: 100
shield height: 55
shield width: 50

Giving it the Hand Pavise these stats would make it a decent alternative to the other 100 speed shields out there as opposed to a straight replacement for the other 100 speed shields out there. One of the things that's actually lacking among 100 speed shields at the moment is one with high HP (Knightly Heater and Kite are fast and high resistance, Elite Cavalry is fast and high width), so changing the stats to this would make it fulfill the niche of "fast and high HP" and fit in with the theme of a mini board shield, which is what it's supposed to be.

Reducing its hp to 300 something instead and leaving the body armor on it untouched would make it too similar to the Knightly Kite shield in terms of stats and make it a very unappealing choice compared to the Elite Cavalry Shield for pretty much every shielder out there due to 14 width being far more important than a paltry 50 HP.


Triangle Shield
weight: 7
body armor: 10
difficulty: 5
hit points: 417
speed rating: 97
shield height: 92
shield width: 44
slots: 1

One thing that's sorely lacking among shields with high (as in 5+) requirements is one that doesn't require 2 slots. The Steel Shield and Huscarl Shield are both 2 slot, and the normal Steel Buckler was previously 1 slot (now 0 slot) but was honestly not worth using over any normal shield if you liked living.

If you want to make the Triangle Shield both useful and different from existing shield choices while not making it unquestionably better than existing shield choices, making the above changes fills in the niche for a high shield skill shield that isn't 2 slot. A Triangle Shield with these stats wouldn't outmode either of the board shields, because both the 1 slot and 2 slot board shields would still offer better hp, resistance, and width. It also wouldn't outmode the different full size kite shields, because they would offer better hp, resistance, and price for someone whose build wouldn't benefit from the Triangle Shield being 1 slot.

Furthermore, giving the Triangle Shield these stats is a sensible decision from a general design standpoint. You will have made it more in line statistically with the kite shields, which it visually resembles, and making it 1 slot fits with the fact that every other existing shield with less than 8 weight (and isn't a buckler) is currently 1 slot.

[Phew]

Hand Pavise Shield
weight: 5
body armor: 7
difficulty: 4
hit points: 411
speed rating: 100
shield height: 55
shield width: 50

Sounds good, I like the mini board shield concept. Although I'd argue that we need a fast 2-slot shield (triangle), it just has too many HP right now. Even with a spare slot, I wouldn't consider any of the old 2-slot shields, because they are all slow.

[Spa_geh_tea]

Hand Pavise Shield
weight: 5
body armor: 7
difficulty: 3
hit points: 385
speed rating: 100
shield height: 55
shield width: 50

Reduce difficulty to +3, or those stats will make it obsolete as a tier 4 shield.
Look at the brown lion heater or heraldic kite shield.

[Phew]

Reduce difficulty to +3, or those stats will make it obsolete as a tier 4 shield.
Look at the brown lion heater or heraldic kite shield.

It should be only marginally better than the Brown Lion, and stay at 4 requirement. Right now, for going up one difficulty and a little bit of cost (Brown Lion->Hand Pavise), you get:

+9 armor
+130 hp
+4 speed
-1.5 weight

Compare that to other tier 3->4 upgrades, like Round Shield to Heavy Round:

+5 armor
+74 HP
-4 speed
+1 weight

The bonuses that you get going from Brown Lion to Hand Pavise are even more than what you get going from 1-slot to 2-slot shields, AND it gains speed, not loses it. I don't know how this made it past even a cursory balance review. People with +3 shields are better off using a +0 Hand Pavise than their loomed shield, which is totally silly. Heck, it's more durable than a loomed Huscarl, which is 1. expensive 2. heavy 3. two-slot and 4. slow.

So we should probably expect this to be fixed in about the time it took to nerf the OP Rondel Dagger, which was what, 4 months?

[Dezilagel]

Reduce difficulty to +3, or those stats will make it obsolete as a tier 4 shield.
Look at the brown lion heater or heraldic kite shield.

100 speed and less weight dude.

[Rebelyell]

Triangle Shield
weight: 7
body armor: 10
difficulty: 5
hit points: 602
speed rating: 97
shield height: 92
shield width: 44


are you kiding me?
where is balance that shield is way tooooo fast and shouldn't be usable on horesback and weight is kind of joke here

Heavy Board Shield
weight: 10
body armor: 14
difficulty: 4
hit points: 600
speed rating: 77
shield height: 94
shield width: 56
Can't use on horseback

you totaly kiled that shield

but fuck that that new shields are just op

[EyeBeat]

I will stick with my 3x loomed huscarl and make you guys complain either way.

[Spa_geh_tea]

It should be only marginally better than the Brown Lion, and stay at 4 requirement. Right now, for going up one difficulty and a little bit of cost (Brown Lion->Hand Pavise), you get:

+9 armor
+130 hp
+4 speed
-1.5 weight

Compare that to other tier 3->4 upgrades, like Round Shield to Heavy Round:

+5 armor
+74 HP
-4 speed
+1 weight

The bonuses that you get going from Brown Lion to Hand Pavise are even more than what you get going from 1-slot to 2-slot shields, AND it gains speed, not loses it. I don't know how this made it past even a cursory balance review. People with +3 shields are better off using a +0 Hand Pavise than their loomed shield, which is totally silly. Heck, it's more durable than a loomed Huscarl, which is 1. expensive 2. heavy 3. two-slot and 4. slow.

So we should probably expect this to be fixed in about the time it took to nerf the OP Rondel Dagger, which was what, 4 months?

Good point!

So, reduce it a little more then. In general I don't think its armor ranking of 9 should be considered a tier 4.

[Kaiser Augustus]

I agree that he the hand pavise needs to have lower HP. Nearly all the shields except for the steel covered, heavy board, and hand pavise take 2-4 hits with the P. battleaxe that I use. Hand Pavise takes 5-7 consistently.

[Phew]

I agree that he the hand pavise needs to have lower HP. Nearly all the shields except for the steel covered, heavy board, and hand pavise take 2-4 hits with the P. battleaxe that I use. Hand Pavise takes 5-7 consistently.

Kaiser, this thread was from right after the patch when Hand Pavise had like 500 hp. They've since balanced it with the other shields. Locking thread