Poll

Is archery nerfs fair?

Yes
58 (39.5%)
No
66 (44.9%)
Shot
5 (3.4%)
I'm attacking
18 (12.2%)

Total Members Voted: 145

Author Topic: Is archery nerfs fair? (Updated 03.05.2013)  (Read 6634 times)

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Offline EponiCo

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Re: Is archery nerfs fair?
« Reply #60 on: February 24, 2013, 02:34:16 am »
0
I believe you have very much extrapolated from what I said there. I was talking about a situation where the crossbowman does not have any immediate threats, not in a 1 vs 1 situation against infantry, I'm not sure which part of what I wrote caused that to pop up. What you have said is still valid for your specific scenario, an archer does have a far better chance to survive than a crossbowman against a single target gunning for them but once again, that is not close to what I was talking about.

Ahh, I'm sorry, I've read you as "we become the major targets for crossbowmen (as they) do not need to worry about approaching cavalry or other infantry.".  :oops:

Onto your second point, WPF & PD does not even come close to catching up to the missile speed, not even slightly, besides that, crossbowmen are still able to put in their own wpf, which I would assume, if one increases the missile speed, the other would too, therefore the PD speed up would make bugger all difference, to put it bluntly. (Oh, and then there is the effective WPF decrease with the higher PD, which means that it would offset it more.)

Comparatively, that missile speed is a total of 18 higher than that of a longbow, a hunting crossbow, the "worst" of the lot, has as much speed as a masterwork longbow, the highest missile speed bow on the market.

Iirc it is quite clear that you have to aim quite a bit higher with a bow than with a crossbow of comparable level. Which probably means missile speed is lower as well. What I'm saying is that this also would require quite some testing to get accurate numbers.
For example if PD increases missile speed by 1/3rd of it's damage increase, that would increase longbow speed to 50 something at 6 PD. Which is a speed difference of 12% instead of outrageous 50% compared to the arbalest (crossbows can only improve reload and accuracy). Well like I said, I am also saying that from memory and it may never have applied, or not apply anymore.

Theoretically the crossbow should be used at longer ranges for their higher projectile speeds, but given the map set ups that we have, they don't need to be across the other side of the map as there is a sort of "gravity" towards points where the two bulks of the armies will fight giving a wide range of different targets to hit.

Well, as you need enough cover to reload (and distance sort of increases the area your cover ... uhm covers) you can be very well sitting a long way away from the battle. What range anyone finds reasonable is personal preference, what actually works well in practice for any class is dependent on a number of factors (the accuracy stat or damage dropoff for example) of which not all are really quantifyable (this discussion about tactical range for one thing).

In any case, I'm just saying this to add some points and because there's a big tedency on this forum to just find some stats or anecdotes (or just make them up for all I know) and use them for whining and lobbying, and ignore everything else (not against you).
And in any case, archery is going to be nerfed again.  :lol:

Offline OttomanSniper

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Re: Is archery nerfs fair? (Updated)
« Reply #61 on: March 05, 2013, 07:19:47 pm »
-1
Updated...
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Offline Lactose_the_intolerant

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Re: Is archery nerfs fair? (Updated)
« Reply #62 on: March 05, 2013, 07:35:26 pm »
+2
Updated...

you forgot the one hand weapons with 0 slots as a buff....

Offline Tzar

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Re: Is archery nerfs fair? (Updated 03.05.2013)
« Reply #63 on: March 05, 2013, 10:02:44 pm »
-3
Imho Archery still needs more nerfs  :wink:
I've never played a server where people split up as much or as often as on EU1.  No wonder range is having a field day.

Offline Elmokki

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Re: Is archery nerfs fair? (Updated 03.05.2013)
« Reply #64 on: March 06, 2013, 04:27:31 pm »
+2
Kiting is bundle of sticksry. Anything that makes kiting easier should not be reverted back unless something else nerfs kiting. I do understand that the extra weight is horrible for legit melee fighting and I can only approve archers fighting with those new 0 slot onehanders with low ps but probably no other real penalties, but I have no idea what'd be a better solution so just throw your bows to the ground!

Upkeep can be lowered for all I care.

Offline Kafein

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Re: Is archery nerfs fair? (Updated 03.05.2013)
« Reply #65 on: March 06, 2013, 06:39:02 pm »
0
That list is an attempt at maliciously making people think that only archers got nerfs and that not a single archer buff ever happened, and those statements we all know are false.

Also you forget that the playerbase is not static. Defending against melee is a skill that is learned and is extremely effective to drag melee fights. You can't do that against archers. You couldn't when the game was released, and you still can't. There is no such thing as "learn to dodge". Everybody knows how to dodge. It just doesn't work against a good archer.

Offline Spjut

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Re: Is archery nerfs fair? (Updated 03.05.2013)
« Reply #66 on: March 17, 2013, 12:48:09 am »
0
Well I quit CRPG I am a HA and can't hit anything if I don't ride up and shoot the target from some meters. I tried to fire into a bunch of players from around 50 meters and I couldn't hit anyone from there... Then I tried to bump one soldier but he just glided around the horse so I guess they nerfed the bump thing also. Poor the nerfing. I have all my stuff as a archer... no loomed armor or weapon. I can't fight anylonger. I quit. BYE! :rolleyes:

Offline XyNox

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Re: Is archery nerfs fair? (Updated 03.05.2013)
« Reply #67 on: March 17, 2013, 12:31:16 pm »
+1
Countless threads about archery being overnerfed for several months now. Archers all over the world complaining the game is not fun anymore. Even more and more melee players state that nerfs are getting quite unfair. Players quitting to the left and right.

Devs, how would you judge the current situation ?

Devs: Uhhh, ... *snort* ... dunno ... nerf archery ?
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Offline Varadin

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Re: Is archery nerfs fair? (Updated 03.05.2013)
« Reply #68 on: March 18, 2013, 04:46:00 am »
0
Im archer myself, i find it more difficult now , but i can still kill anyone with my bow. If archery is going to be nerfed i think the fair thing should be that rest of the classes be nerfed as well.
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Offline Wolfsblood

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Re: Is archery nerfs fair? (Updated 03.05.2013)
« Reply #69 on: March 18, 2013, 05:39:48 am »
+1
as it is, I believe archer is as balanced as it is going to get without nerfing it to the point that it is unplayable (the only thing that sucks is I apparently run around with 10 boulders in each of my quivers but, meh, i cant think of a better way to keep my old friends from kiting).

we now have 0 slot weps that archers can actually hurt people with so they dont have to be kiting my old friendchers. the only time i see people still complain about archers is when they run in a straight line up a hill towards 6 archers and then they go "WHY MY IF NO WORK HURR DURR NERF ARCHER MORE PLOX"


Offline Paul

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Re: Is archery nerfs fair? (Updated 03.05.2013)
« Reply #70 on: March 18, 2013, 12:12:02 pm »
+2
I'm actually having fun as an archer. Even as a (money problems related) dismounted horse archer. Doesn't seem overnerfed.

Offline LordRichrich

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Re: Is archery nerfs fair? (Updated 03.05.2013)
« Reply #71 on: March 18, 2013, 12:12:46 pm »
0
Honestly, I think archery is fine.  Maybe less drop on long range shooting or something though?

I play archer, 18/15 atm. My wpf is evenly split between 1h and archery. I beleive this is the way to go. I'm slow moving and slow drawing (longbow) so I'm not going to fire at super long range, I'm going to shoot what I can hit. And when it gets too close, 6PS and a short brod sword can often deal with it :)

I beleive the majority of players that rage (And i know this doesn't apply to Ottoman sniper because he's 2h) are pure archers. Any pure class (apart from 2h ofc *sigh*) is gonna get fucked in this game ^^

Offline KillerofFlowers

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Re: Is archery nerfs fair?
« Reply #72 on: March 18, 2013, 01:35:02 pm »
0
I understand the intentions behind the weight nerf and I do not at all miss the kiting aspect of archery but still I think this could also have been achieved with a mechanic a bit less retarded. What I dont understand though, instead giving some compensation for the mobility nerf, archers get another ranged nerf by nerfing missile speed and damage ??

I don't know if its already done like this but instead of increasing weight on all the archery gear, change power draw, so that the more power draw you have the slower you are.

Offline Molly

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Re: Is archery nerfs fair? (Updated 03.05.2013)
« Reply #73 on: March 18, 2013, 01:40:38 pm »
+1
I am more surprised that people are still complaining. There are a bunch of archers on EU1 the whole day and just play... can't be that bad after all.
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Offline XyNox

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Re: Is archery nerfs fair? (Updated 03.05.2013)
« Reply #74 on: March 18, 2013, 06:24:13 pm »
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I'm actually having fun as an archer. Even as a (money problems related) dismounted horse archer. Doesn't seem overnerfed.


In that case, let me show you a few quotes about your opinion concerning archery from the past. Please keep in mind that you posted some of those pre nerf.


Quote
Quote
If you compare 1 shot from arba to 1 shot from bow, yes. Reloading..? Bow wins. Mobility...? Bow wins. Upkeep...? Both are high.

There is so much more between it. The ability to hold the closed reticule for a long time, the far better awareness due reloading, the higher shot speed...

I know, a skilled archer can compensate all that to a certain degree, even more when fully loomed. But the average player is more dangerous with an arba than with any bow.

Quote
The thing is the ones who complain the most, the inf, are actually the round deciders while archers along with thrower have the least impact on the round outcome. So if you wanna complain about archers, complain about having too many of them in your own team while the other steamrolls you due the inf advantage.

The other big factor, map dependent, is of course cav. But  they again feast on the ignorance and stupidity of players. If there was actual teamwork among the ranged and melee footmen, cav would have a harder time.

Quote
Did I miss anything? Archers are the ultra class now that dominate everyone  - even shielders with "antishielder bugusing"? I remember them as squishy bottom feeders that were more an annoyance than a threat to my shieldless melee chars. They didn't even waste any energy to target my shielders. Raped by cav and other ranged alike, their low armor making them a "one mistake and you are out" class. But they are probably OP now, with all the changes over the past months.

Quote
What is a "risk"? For me the lowest risk of losing a round is either going melee footman(low upkeep) or melee cav(high upkeep). As ranged horseman I might be able to survive for a while and hurt the enemy team with taking out the horses of their melee cav but I can't really deal damage to their players unless they are really retarded. Highest risk for me is going foot archer because he is made out of glass and not even close to being a cannon. Going foot xbow or (hybrid) thrower is ok. Medium risk, I can be effective there. But don't get me started on horse throwers.

Quote
Quote
infantry is the meat of the mod. If there are too many archers and cav they kill it like bloodsucking little mosquitos.

Infantry are the round decider of this mod. Along with cav, who mostly profit from ignorance of other players, they are the most powerful factor in this game. In comparison ranged is on an all time low in terms of significance towards the outcome of a round.

However we will nerf ranged further. Afaik after the end of WSE2 beta and with the installation of the WSE2 clientside endlösung, we plan to add wind(with a fixed vector per map or round) to the game that deviates the path from projectiles significantly, making aiming more skillbased.


All those points you list are the same that archers still complain about today. In every of those posts you give reason for archers being an overall inferior class compared to its competitors. And I repeat, some of those statements were made when archery was a lot less nerfed than today.

So what happened Paul ? Why the sudden change in attitude ?
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