Is archery nerfs fair? (Updated 03.05.2013)

[XyNox]

But tzar gets fuckin instakilled by headshots every single fucking time, i bet even by a huntingbow.

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I guess it was throwing lance, he just cant tell the difference. Like that guy that opened a thread about ranged damage being OP and then he actually posted a screen with a bolt sticking out of his leg.

[Tomas]

There are a number of problems with archery in its current state

1) Ranged still kite.  There isn't enough room in the class system to be a decent hybrid archer and they have too many arrows - it is this that allows and encourages kiting and the weight increases have not stopped Xbow, HA or HX kiting at all so to me it was a poor idea.  In fact archers themselves still kite by dropping their bows and arrows and then running back to them later.  All it has done is add an annoyance to the game and overpower cav.

2) Archers no longer get valour whilst certain melee players can get it most rounds.  Even I can get valour a decent amount and i'm crap at melee.  This means the repair function is useless and it unbalances archery.  Melee players are stacking more armour than they should be able to on average and are still making money meaning archery is worth less.

3) Shields should be useable by everybody.  Without the bonuses from shield skill even the best shields are pretty crap in melee so why not let everybody use them.

4) PS matters too much. If we want every build to be viable in melee then damage needs to be effected less overall by build.

What we actually need in cRPG is a Primary/Secondary system whereby everybody's primary class is generic melee and is based solely on their attributes, but then they have a secondary class based on their skills and that allows them to either focus on a special branch of melee or on archery, throwing or crossbows.

Here's what I would like to see.....

First people pick attributes (1 point per level, non convertable)
- People start at 15/15
- Strength effects damage (inc xbows) and weapon/armour usage (2% extra damage per point)
- Agility effecta base wpf and run speed (2 wpf per point in all classes, 2% extra run speed)
- Everybody gets 60hp as standard

Then people pick skills (1 point per level, no caps based on str or agi, normal caps at 15 points, non-convertible)
- Iron Flesh gives extra HP (2 per point)
- Shield gives a damage reduction to shields (6% per point)
- Riding allows the use of horses and buffs maneuverability by 6% per level
- Archery unlocks the use of bows and gives 6 archery wpf per point
- Crossbow unlocks the use of xbows and gives 6 crossbow wpf per point
- Throwing unlocks the use of throwing weapons and gives 6 crossbow wpf per point
- Two Hand skill gives 6 2H wpf per point
- One Hand skill gives 6 1H wpf per point
- Polearm skill gives 6 Pole wpf per point

Some level 30 builds

Max strength 2H
- 45/15, 15IF, 15TwoHand = 90% damage bonus, 30% run speed bonus, 90HP, 120 TwoHand wpf, 30 wpf in all other classes.

Max Agi 2H
- 15/45, 15IF, 15TwoHand = 30% damage bonus, 90% run speed bonus, 90HP, 180 TwoHand wpf, 90 wpf in all other classes.

Balanced 2H
- 30/30, 15IF, 15TwoHand = 60% damage bonus, 60% run speed bonus, 90HP, 150 TwoHand wpf, 60 wpf in all other classes.

Strength Archer
- 45/15, 15TwoHand, 15Archery = 90% damage bonus, 30% run speed bonus, 60HP, 120 Archery wpf, 120 Two Handed wpf, 30 wpf in all other classes.

Note - ranged will only get 1 quiver so they will need that melee ability

Agility Archer
- 15/45, 15TwoHand, 15Archery = 30% damage bonus, 90% run speed bonus, 60HP, 180 Archery wpf, 180 Two Handed wpf, 90 wpf in all other classes.

Balanced Archer
- 30/30, 15TwoHand, 15Archery = 60% damage bonus, 60% run speed bonus, 60HP, 150 Archery wpf, 150 Two Handed wpf, 60 wpf in all other classes.

Potential Cav Build
- 35/25, 10Polearm, 15Riding, 5IF = 70% damage bonus, 50% run speed bonus, 70HP, 110 Polearm wpf, 90% Maneuverability bonus, 50 wpf in all other classes.

Potential HA Build
- 20/40, 15Archery, 15Riding = 40% damage bonus, 80% run speed bonus, 60HP, 170 Archery wpf, 90% Maneuverability bonus, 80 wpf in all other classes.

Note - no need for HA skill anymore as HAs only have 1 quiver anyway.  There would still be an accuracy malus for firing from horseback though but it could be linked to maneuverability rather than traveling speed to promote the use of lighter horses and higher riding skill.

The build I would probably go for
- 25/35, 8 Shield, 12Xbow, 10OneHand = 50% damage bonus, 70% run speed bonus, 60HP, 48% damage reduction to shields, 142Xbow wpf, 130 One Handed wpf.

Overall results
- Everybody can melee but focused melee are still better at it as they can carry extra HP or better shields.  For example the difference between a balanced 2H and a balanced Archer with 2H is Hit Points not damage.
- As people get higher levels they can keep focusing their attributes but must spread their skills due to the cap at 15
- Still plenty of variation
- Overall there is a nerf to high strength builds (less max damage, less max HP, same wpf) and a buff to Agi builds (more HP, More min damage, same wpf) but both still offer different playstiles.
- Less ranged projectiles overall although probably more hybrids with ranged in the game
- Most ammo will be used up in the first few minutes of rounds meaning less kiting at the end of rounds when most players are dead.
- More skill to ranged play as wasting ammo is very costly.
- Finally you could link ammo counts to server population to make sure ammo is always at a premium and likely to run out just as the round is ending.

[Dach]

Id have to say, if infantry has a problem with archers kiting, then surly it would have been a better idea for some infantry to quit being complete tanks and instead beat the kiters at their own game?

THIS!!!

Sometime ago (before the archery weight nerf) I made a 15/30 crossbow/melee build wearing very light armor and I could tell you no archer could kite me...

But no people make 30/15 build and WHINE that they can't catch archer with 15/21, 15/24 build...

The archer invested point for his ATH... let him use it... if melee build build don't want to invest in that skill well..... DEAL WITH IT!

But yeah, i'm just renting continu to nerf ranged, I'm playing HA right now. 

[Zlisch_The_Butcher]

Before the patch I couldn't catch a lot of my old friendchers with my 12/27 9 ath leather armor and 90 length weapon char.

[Dach]

well maybe they had 9 ATH too? 

And guess what you need more ATH then them because first you need to catch up to them and when you start an attack you slow down...

But the current nerf is over the top...

Right now an average archer is carrying 25 weight of stuff.... mace 2 / tribal warrior outfit 5.5 / rus cavalry boots 0.8 / horn bow 2.5 / 2 stack of bodkins 14 (It get worse if he want to wear a bit more protection or use any other kind of arrows.)

For your average 2h melee that mean: Danish 2.5 / Splinted greaves with spurs 2.5 /  Vaegir war mask 3 / Plate mittens 1.3 / Heavy Kuyak 14

(See the trend here?  )

Which is around 50 armor rating all around unloomed, this is medium armor leaning on the heavy side.

Why should an archer should be as slow as an medium armored fighter?! Come on...

Also the melee fighter will probably one shot the archer, the archer will need between 3-5 shot the kill the other guy. Unless you headshot him.

There is also the unbalanced between STR and AGI build that doesn't help either.

Do I need to add that archer get a malus on their wpf for using PD, do melee fighter get the same for using PS ??? ehhh no.

STR reduce the weight malus on ATH, Give you more HP, give you more damage.

AGI increase movement... which is nerfed by too much weight...

 

[bagge]

Nerfing kiting and not increasing melee power even the slighest is just unfair. If we however would be able to carry a decent weapon with 2 quivers I highly doubt that kiting would be an issue. "The good old days" were way better when archers could actually wear armor and a melee weapon. I'm not lobbying for tincan archers, but at least medium armors

Isn't it kinda obvious if you strip a ranged class their melee powers, they intend to run and shoot or are you seriously expecting archers with 0-4 PS to try and kill tincans with a Pickaxe/Hammer? Well then you are retarded

[Ronin]

Let me give you an example:

I was enjoying my game.
Bagge just headshotted me in the strategus battle yesterday night. If I recall correctly, I lost all of my health and died. (18 STR, 2 if, huscarl helmet)
I didn't cry.
I continued enjoying my game.


People really think archers should not be able to hit their targets at all. That is the logic behind those nerfs.

Reducing archers' kiting effectiveness and also dropping their melee capabilities are purely retardic. Retardic! There are no words to decribe this in a more polite way.

By the way:

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Good job bagge

[Tennenoth]

Another thread I see! 

My own personal views, not that I am much of an archer these days, is that the damage on ranged weapons is far too random, it's clear to me that no one really has an understanding of what the average damage is because Tzar claims he was one shot to the face and Ottoman claims that he takes two headshots on the weakest of horses and both of these claims could be true. (On a side note I will bug people for the actual specific calculations to see what the ranges are, whether or not on a best case scenario each of those things are possible, it might take a lot of teeth pulling however.)

Archery, and I expect a lot of people won't agree, particularly archers, is in a more or less reasonable state vs infantry melee. You need a reasonable number of shots to take down a target depending on the type of equipment you're using (you shouldn't really be using a horn bow and firing for tin cans, that's not what it's for!) and that promotes consistent skill over random luck which is what is promoted. You can't kite quite as easily as before, of course the weight nerf wasn't ideal but it was far superiour to the silly athletics to wpf bollocks.
The major downfall is against cav, which we should have more difficulty in fighting since they're effectively our counter-balance but I do believe they have quite a large advantage since we can no longer jump shot.

The only thing for archer that I want to see changed is the jump shooting, it's, want of better words, bloody stupid. First off, mechanically, it's confusing; you jump while drawing back your bow, regardless of where you are in the animation, your local character jumps quite happily but then you get pinged back, and your server-side you stays exactly where it is. Not only are you a sitting duck, if your opponent somehow misses, usually a cavalryman, you're disorientated while trying to work out where you actually are. Previously, which was a much better implementation (and I don't know why it was changed to this) where it just cancels the firing and does the "penguin jump" - at least you know where you bloody well are along with the ability to actually avoid whatever the hell you were trying to in the first place. In this regard there are two options for me, revert to the old penguin jump or remove the crappy parallel universe jump.

To summarise;

• Archery has it's flaws and some of the implementations of changes aren't agreeable but at the end of the day, it's playable.
• Either revert the jump shot to the penguin jump or allow all ranged to jump shot anyway, it was, and still is, just as viable to run and turn when kiting than it was to jump and turn, it made bugger all difference really.
• More stable damage system/calculations so that it is easier to judge damage, far too random.
• Gain damage calculations - I remember that they might have been somewhere, maybe in the other set of calculations. I know what I'm talking about and I will try and find them and update this post with the links.

Anyway, as I say, I'm not much of an archer these days since I try to melee as much as possible when I run out of my 17 arrows but I still think that I can pin point a few flaws and "annoyances" that I have with the class.
The other ranged class, in particular crossbows, really dulls us down in effectiveness, we're doomed to wear lighter armour than most, we have to deal with our slow speeds and we become the major targets for crossbowmen who do not need to worry about approaching cavalry or other infantry. Arbalesters can one shot us 95% of the time (again, the damage calculations are needed to confirm this type of thing but I rarely survive an arbalest shot as a rule of thumb) and because of their higher missile speed it makes it much more difficult for us to do anything about it, even at range. (In comparison here: Longbow: 40 missile speed vs Jarids: 20 missile speed vs Arbalest: 58 missile speed. Granted you can't throw as fast as you can shoot but it was just to make them feel wanted.) I remember, and I could be wrong knowing my memory, that archery's missile speed was changed to near real life speed values (I vaguely remember a talk with Paul/Urist a long while back) while crossbow speeds stayed above realistic values, which I've always thought unfair, but I'm sure they had their reasons.

Right, time to cut this here since I'm starting to ramble about irrelevant things. I don't really want to get involved in random spam wars of baseless comments but I will be happy to reply to opinions and speculations with reasonable thoughts in so that we can try and keep this as civil as possible! Especially since most of what I have written is my own opinions and speculations!

[Spa_geh_tea]

Not too sure what archer builds are these days, but in my 40 body armor 1 arrow equals 1/2 to 3/4 of my HP. In melee it takes 3hits to kill me.

How is it, someone who can hit me across the map kill me in fewer "attacks" be considered unfair?


So please enlighten me as to what these archer builds are, because they seem to work just fine.



PS. I have a 6shield skill and still get pinged from the front.

[CrazyCracka420]

Not too sure what archer builds are these days, but in my 40 body armor 1 arrow equals 1/2 to 3/4 of my HP. In melee it takes 3hits to kill me.

Depends on the PD of the archer, the bow used, were they shooting down at you, what type of arrow used, were the bow/arrow loomed.

What type of melee damage (cut/pierce/blunt) was the item loomed, what was their PS/WPF, did they get a speed bonus, or were they given a negative speed bonus for not turning into the swing.

So many variables involved, to make a statement that you made without any qualifying information just shows your ignorance.

Let me try your logic:

Sometimes I get hit with an arrow and it takes away 1/6th of my health, other times I get hit by melee and die in one hit.  I'm being 100% honest here, but I'm not providing you any relevant information that would be necessary to determine why the arrow only took 1/6th HP and why I was one hit by melee.

[XyNox]

PS. I have a 6shield skill and still get pinged from the front.

You know, shields dont autosoak arrows just for being in the inventory. You have to equip it and click RMB to actually bring your shield up

[KaffeKalle]

Archery doesnt need to be buffed, I think its alright as it is now. It deals about the same dmg as people do in melee. Xbows should get nerfed as well though, the dmg some of them deal is just insane...can come walking around in my pretty heavy armor, get shot in the foot and die from one hit...

[EponiCo]

crossbowmen who do not need to worry about approaching cavalry or other infantry.

I do not know how you can think this. In 1vs1 vs infantry the archers ability to keep distance as long as possible while shooting all the time is offset by the crossbowmans fairly good chance to oneshot and somewhat higher melee stats. I'm assuming btw that the archer has a 1 slot weapon and 5 or 6 PS, if your shooting damage isn't good enough with that then I'd really argue that there is something wrong with the damage values, or alternatively making higher tier bows 1 slot, giving more ammo etc.
When ganked or in a group fight the archer is simply better. An arbalestier in a group fight always has to make a decision: Do I commit myself to a 6 or 7 second reload during which I have to stand still or do I jump into melee? All it takes is one enemy able to focus attention on him and he can cancel it and go into emergency melee anyway. The archer just keeps shooting until that actually happens, no time wasted, and since he can always position himself as he wants probably can avoid melee in the first place.

(In comparison here: Longbow: 40 missile speed vs Jarids: 20 missile speed vs Arbalest: 58 missile speed.

I think archery skills (WPF + PD) increase missile speed, similar for throwing. Have no idea if that's (still) in or what values that actually are. I've never been a particular fan of the speed nerfs though. I think the reasoning behind it was they are going to nerf archery one way or another and that's still more skill based than decreasing accuracy.


But in any case agree, pointless thread is pointless.

[OttomanSniper]

Archery doesnt need to be buffed, I think its alright as it is now. It deals about the same dmg as people do in melee. Xbows should get nerfed as well though, the dmg some of them deal is just insane...can come walking around in my pretty heavy armor, get shot in the foot and die from one hit...

Devs always say this but nerfs never stop.

[Tennenoth]

I do not know how you can think this. In 1vs1 vs infantry the archers ability to keep distance as long as possible while shooting all the time is offset by the crossbowmans fairly good chance to oneshot and somewhat higher melee stats. I'm assuming btw that the archer has a 1 slot weapon and 5 or 6 PS, if your shooting damage isn't good enough with that then I'd really argue that there is something wrong with the damage values, or alternatively making higher tier bows 1 slot, giving more ammo etc.
When ganked or in a group fight the archer is simply better. An arbalestier in a group fight always has to make a decision: Do I commit myself to a 6 or 7 second reload during which I have to stand still or do I jump into melee? All it takes is one enemy able to focus attention on him and he can cancel it and go into emergency melee anyway. The archer just keeps shooting until that actually happens, no time wasted, and since he can always position himself as he wants probably can avoid melee in the first place.

I think archery skills (WPF + PD) increase missile speed, similar for throwing. Have no idea if that's (still) in or what values that actually are. I've never been a particular fan of the speed nerfs though. I think the reasoning behind it was they are going to nerf archery one way or another and that's still more skill based than decreasing accuracy.


But in any case agree, pointless thread is pointless.

I believe you have very much extrapolated from what I said there. I was talking about a situation where the crossbowman does not have any immediate threats, not in a 1 vs 1 situation against infantry, I'm not sure which part of what I wrote caused that to pop up. What you have said is still valid for your specific scenario, an archer does have a far better chance to survive than a crossbowman against a single target gunning for them but once again, that is not close to what I was talking about.

To put emphasis on what I was actually talking about, I am saying that the crossbowman is quite happily away from any aggressors, at range from the battlefield & has the liberty to pick his target. This is not a "crossbowman vs infantry" state, this is a "crossbowman vs archer" state. To further solidify my target situation, the archer can't stand still long enough to release a shot because the arbalester has already cocked his shot and is aiming at said archer. Regardless of how you look at it, that archer is "pinned down", maybe not by actual fire, but by the threat of someone pointing something that will potentially one shot him with little chance to avoid it.
Onto your second point, WPF & PD does not even come close to catching up to the missile speed, not even slightly, besides that, crossbowmen are still able to put in their own wpf, which I would assume, if one increases the missile speed, the other would too, therefore the PD speed up would make bugger all difference, to put it bluntly. (Oh, and then there is the effective WPF decrease with the higher PD, which means that it would offset it more.)

Comparatively, that missile speed is a total of 18 higher than that of a longbow, a hunting crossbow, the "worst" of the lot, has as much speed as a masterwork longbow, the highest missile speed bow on the market. If we're talking about skill, I assume you're referring to the ability to judge which direction an aware player will move, and whether or not they are aware, the drop in the missile to hit your target. Well, that would mean that to hit a target with a crossbow, you need aim flatter and have a much higher chance of hitting your target if they are aware because regardless of the range, the projectile moves faster, which reduces the time that the player has to get out of the way.
Theoretically the crossbow should be used at longer ranges for their higher projectile speeds, but given the map set ups that we have, they don't need to be across the other side of the map as there is a sort of "gravity" towards points where the two bulks of the armies will fight giving a wide range of different targets to hit. In my opinion, this lessens the backing for such high missile speeds.
On top of that, if my memory serves me well, the real life mechanics apply in Warband as well; the further the projectile travels, the more speed it loses and therefore the less damage it does on contact. (As you'd expect) The higher the missile speed means that it can lose more speed (and fly further), therefore hitting its target at a higher speed at the same range than a shot from a lower missile speed weapon, causing more damage. To equate this to an arbalest, it can shoot for a higher distance without such a high damage reduction ensuring that it deals a higher damage than any shot from an archer. (Given the arbalest's maximum damage compared to an archers maximum damage, I mean this specifically to mean the damage loss from their maximums and not to compare a high damage archer build vs an arbalest).
I hope that made sense because I've read it a couple of times and I'm just not sure it's as clear as it could be, but it should do.

Without all of the above, this is not a "archery vs crossbowery" thread and has little place here other than the clarify and attempt to answer your post in a amiable manner, which I hope it has done. Please note that I have said things such as "I believe" and "if my memory serves me well" which means that I could be wrong but I am giving it my best shot to understand & intelligently add to the conversation at hand.