Lobbyism

[Tydeus]

Ranged counters ranged? I would be a hypocrite if I took advantage of xbows with my build. They should have requirements or there should be more incentive to put all wpf into melee

It's a really shitty argument anyway, don't bother dwelling on the thing. "Shot by arrows? Get a shield." If you're saying that the only alternative is to change your class, then you have just admitted to there being a design flaw. Unfortunately this is a video game. When 2hers were popular irl, so was heavy armor that made it hard for projectiles to penetrate. M&B and cRPG in particular mix 12th-15th century themes and because of this, they have bred the scenario we currently have, with 2hers being extremely vulnerable to ranged weapons. This is how it has to be though. We're stuck with smaller scale battles with much less organization and anything else would likely make ranged practically obsolete.

There are too many factors in this game that work contrary to real life for us to likely ever fix the problem. Two-Handers have to realize there isn't really any alternative and archers have to realize that the simple ability to even penetrate plate armor with the bows and arrows that they often use, means that they already have balance catered towards them. The situation is as it has to be, so grow thicker skin and drone out the 2h vs archer vs 2h lobbyism, like many of us already have.

*When I say 2h, I simply mean any melee character that doesn't have the ability to use a shield, like pikemen*

[Smoothrich]

Ranged counters ranged? I would be a hypocrite if I took advantage of xbows with my build. They should have requirements or there should be more incentive to put all wpf into melee

That's pretty much the main problem of cRPG balance.

Infantry is countered by cav, ranged, and infantry.
Cav is countered by ranged, cav, infantry.
Ranged is countered by Other Ranged Only.

Ranged is more powerful in almost every scenario 1 vs 1 against all other classes.  Only possible counter is a shielder that never looks away for a split second but that is unrealistic.  They 2 shot horses, ignore armor rating, insta kill on headshots, with no nerfs to spin shooting like other "support" classes (pikes, mauls.)

Their damage scales from WPF, PD/PT, bow looms, and ammo looms.  All these sources of extra damage and accuracy makes ranged curve up in power way more dramatically then melee classes at the high-end of looms and levels.

My Solution:  Reduce the effectiveness of pierce ranged damage against armor.  Heavy cav, balanced/agi builds in heavy armor should be good, logical counters to ranged.  However your armor rating is realistically meaningless against the way every archer is massive stacked pierce, and all throwing axes hit like throwing spears.

[rufio]

Panos/zlisch I have a question What classes do you respect?

both run arround naked most of the time, and spend more time on forum than ingame.

[Zlisch_The_Butcher]

Panos/zlisch I have a question What classes do you respect?

Archers who don't kite and got a decent melee/archer build, throwers who don't kite, crossbowmen who don't kite and don't stand waiting at some corner for an easy kill, people who don't wear medium armor, horsethrowers who don't delay, horsearchers/xbowmen who go in for the bumps at each shot in order to give their enemies some fair chance unless the other guy is also a ranged and of course don't delay, cav who neither spawnrape, delay, or stab at backs, people who don't use twohanded weapons, people who don't use the longest swingable poles and hold S while wearing the heaviest gear possible (not overpowered, just really gay), shielders who don't wear one of the eternal hp (not talking 13 shield skill practice shields but steel shields or boards) and just hold block for half an hour and then hit when your enemy is asleep, people who worship Mork the Goat God and none of those heathen "gods" that some other groups have taken a liking to.

[Zlisch_The_Butcher]

both run arround naked most of the time, and spend more time on forum than ingame.

Funny 'cause wrong and you're slightly retarded, and I wouldn't spend more time on the forum than ingame if I didn't have the forum open in other windows when I'm playing c-rpg/watching tv.

[Joseph Porta]

These are the stats:
weapon length: 84
weight: 2
difficulty: 12
speed rating: 95
weapon length: 84
thrust damage: 0 pierce
swing damage: 32 cut
slots: 1
Bonus against Shield
Secondary Mode

Pretty sure speed and dmg is 2+ in 2h mode though.

I guess a reason to not take it is the extra weight that will slow you down noticeably.

[Kalam]

From a 'class' point of view, the game is generally well balanced these days. Just compare cRPG to just about any game. It's on DotA levels of balance, here. If not better. The only issue is strength vs. agility balance and how shitty shielders are. Since I'm neither, it's all good to me. Yeah, that's bad, but it's time to look forward. At Melee.

[Falka]

shielders who don't hold block for half an hour and then hit when your enemy is asleep

You got + from me just because of that, I hate these guys even more than gayplites 

[Angantyr]

To be fair, anyone who earnestly cries 'OP!' about this or that class or weapon in cRPG's current state is just a bad player, plays way too much to have a real clear picture, or is highly biased for some reason or another, usually kids who think everyone should reform to their view of what is good sportsmanship, 'cool' or not, known a lot of these and used to know a ninja who sincerely thought that everyone who didn't use light armor and any weapon shorter than katana was a nub and if he lost to anyone not living up to these criteria he would blame their OP equipment for their victory. See a lot of that mentality here, on a daily basis.. Weapons, classes, it's all situational, and with the current group > individual mechanics it often boils down to who has the most clan mates behind him to pub stomp with (especially evident on EU1).

[Grumbs]

Nothing can ever be truly OP with that mindset. Everything is balanced, everyone is just complaining about classes or builds that kill them..

There are issues with aspects of the game. Putting your head in the sand and saying everything balances because its a-symmetrical balance will never push the mod forward.

I do think there are people who are selfish and only want to kill as much as possible and have the game as easy as they can get it, and that applies to all classes. But I don't think that should mean you just abandon the idea of balance and listening to feedback. The devs have to play the game themselves and look at several different aspects to improve balance. The forums can only give them ideas but will never create a solid picture for them to balance around

[Angantyr]

Certainly there's imbalances here and there and they should be reported and at least an attempt should be made at an objective discussion. Above I'm referring to the strong anti-whatever campaigns that are continuesly fuelled here, in my view nothing is that game-breaking anymore.

[Smoothrich]

For actual balance, you should create a subforum that is invite only, and select a few dozen "good players" from NA and EU, who can construct sentences, talk numbers, play different classes, and have reasonable conversations.  These people can test new balance/mechanics changes on beta servers, and have lively discussions and give advice to the balance team.  Lots of game experience, knowledge of game mechanics, and a high level of skill would all be expected. 

Most games like Dota listen to their competitive scene or other top skilled players, along with having beta-testing open to a small part of the skilled community already.  This is clearly lacking in cRPG, with mountains of garbage being posted by "low skilled pubbies" on every page with no real discussion happening.

The public balance forum can be merged with the realism discussion, and people like Panos can type their 10,000 word manifestos about the L0lstAB!1 there, while people who are trying to make the game more fun and fair for everyone can talk somewhere else.

[Panos]

Panos/zlisch I have a question What classes do you respect?

I respect 2handers like Jormglorm, everytime I duel that dude even though he kicks my ass I feel happy because a) he doesnt abuze and he uses footwork and b) my skill raises a bit.

I respect archers like bagge and tenne, both of them will never run like  little my old friends and always stay and melee you and they are pretty good at melee.

And in general I respect players who are trully good in the game, some examples, chase, muffin, gurnisson , polepoop, Ive seen those guys playing all classes and doing good if not perfect.


And to answer to rufio, I play naked you little whinning my old friend, because I have to leech some gold to buy some MW shit, no worries this will be my last generation that I  leech. You`ll see after that what happens.

[Grumbs]

I respect 2handers like Jormglorm, everytime I duel that dude even though he kicks my ass I feel happy because a) he doesnt abuze and he uses footwork and b) my skill raises a bit.

I respect archers like bagge and tenne, both of them will never run like  little my old friends and always stay and melee you and they are pretty good at melee.

And in general I respect players who are trully good in the game, some examples, chase, muffin, gurnisson , polepoop, Ive seen those guys playing all classes and doing good if not perfect.


And to answer to rufio, I play naked you little whinning my old friend, because I have to leech some gold to buy some MW shit, no worries this will be my last generation that I  leech. You`ll see after that what happens.

I'm quite conflicted when it comes to this stuff. Players that know how to win are playing the game as it's designed better than other players. If you win then you played the game better, it doesn't matter about self constructed "fair play".

So you can blame the game rather than the player. On the other hand people have an expectation of "fun" while gaming. I respect good players, regardless of how they achieve their goals. Respect is the wrong word, maybe hold in higher esteem...Having fun can include not being bored by another players gameplay, not being beaten by "cheap" things that allow the player to exploit inherent strengths of a class without having to compete against other players.

Panos your point where "fun" gets interrupted by other people playing to win is different to mine. I mostly don't give a damn about the way people use melee abilities to win. I see it as fair use of game mechanics. 2 hand stab, backpeddle (to an extent), side swing spam, whatever. If it wins a melee fight then its fair game. Ranged is a whole other beast that relies on having an intrinsic ability that other classes don't have. You get a huge tactical advantage that they would be fools to neglect, but at the same time it spoils the gameplay when there is little depth in the counters, or the counters involve boring gameplay like hiding or waiting for flags

So its no wonder people make full use of ranged mechanics in this game. Its a smart way to win as the game is designed atm. I won't because the gameplay of ranged bores me, and I don't want to add to the amount of ranged in the game

[woody]

What makes me laugh is ranged who get upset when you kill them in melee saying "Im just an archer stop picking on me" when they've been 1 shotting you for 15 mins.