Author Topic: Lobbyism  (Read 4782 times)

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Offline Leshma

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Lobbyism
« on: January 23, 2013, 09:13:18 pm »
+4
I've noticed that most melee fighters are accused of it, and it seems they open balance threads more often than ranged players. Why is that happening?

Are melee fighters bad people and are those ranged folks nice people?

Somehow I don't believe in that. Especially if we take into account that more people are playing ranged classes or hybrid ranged classes.

I'll give one example, something that happened recently. A player who haven't played cRPG for a long time, Tuatha_BalrogBoru said how he missed the old times when it was fun to play 2H (I'm not sure when was that time because ranged is being a massive threat to shiedless infantry). I asked him why, because I'm satisfied how I perform as 2H. Of course, that depends how many ranged players in the servers but in general is okay. He didn't respond. Tomorrow I saw him playing as mounted xbowmen, he didn't complain anymore.

What you think is the reason why most people accused of lobbyism come from ranks of shieldless infantry?

Offline Miwiw

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Re: Lobbyism
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2013, 09:19:44 pm »
+6
You're lobbying too.
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Offline Tzar

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Re: Lobbyism
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2013, 09:20:49 pm »
+2
Most of you are yet the devs dont listen thank god for that.
I've never played a server where people split up as much or as often as on EU1.  No wonder range is having a field day.

Offline Grumbs

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Re: Lobbyism
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2013, 09:22:22 pm »
+2
"Cus they don't use tactics and charge up hills towards ranged without a shield"

There is some truth to this, but theres a whole extra layer of depth to the issue. My biggest complaint is that I see ranged as having to put in 1/10th of the effort a manual blocking melee guy has to put in, yet gets these 1 hit kills and if they are put under pressure in a melee fight they still have the same or similar defensive capabilities as the pure melee

Even with a shield you're then an easier target to hit, it can only take limited shots before breaking, and shear volume of ranged can render a shield useless. Plus it impacts your melee vs melee capability

The way you approach the situation is important though, and tactics can have a huge impact on defeating ranged. But I could say the same thing if I removed ranged ability to do anything in melee. I could suggest they need to use better tactics to not get into a melee fight in the first place. Why the **** should ranged get to dictate who need to play with better tactics when they just stand around pewpewing rather than pvping

The risk vs reward is very skewed with ranged.
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Offline Leshma

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Re: Lobbyism
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2013, 09:27:07 pm »
+4
You're lobbying too.

I don't like ranged, won't ever play ranged again, don't want to try to understand them anymore. As for melee goes, I'm covered with main and alt.

This game has by far the most annoying ranged aspect. I've never played a game where ranged players induce so much rage in usually calm people.

I just want to know why are the bad guys always melee players.


Offline Panos

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Re: Lobbyism
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2013, 09:30:50 pm »
+8
The majority of this mod plays with a 2hander sword, the most broken class of this mod in my honest opinion.

- 2handers whine that polearms are OP, lets remove polestun.
- 2handers whine that cavalry is OP, lets nerf lance damage and give couch damage max 20 points
- 2handers whine about throwing how OP it is lets nerf it to the bone

and the list goes on and on and on.

I strongly believe that the devs are actually afraid to touch 2handers because people may actually stop playing the mod..need proof??Ok. :


One hand turn speed buffed,2handers reaction.

so basicly , kicks got nerfed to oblivion, crushthrough got nerfed to oblivion, and 1 handed were made demi gods? lol 1 handed was eazymod already now its just gonna be fully op. kinngrimm been bribing the dev team???  and **** your downvotes nabs. i play 1handed most of time and this is just rediculous unballanced haha

quoted for truth, im rerolling shield. forums full of downvoting shield noobs also.


Leshma`s reaction to decreased damage if you hold attacks addon.

Yes, that was before this change. From what I heard, what this change does is to lower damage bellow normal levels if you hold your attack "too long". Eventually your chambered attack will glance.

Chambered attacks were one play style, spam was the other. Now there is just one viable melee play style and that is spam. Thanks to jitter and unstable connection I can't spam so now I'm royally fucked.

These recent changes did buff one "class" and that's agi shielder. We will certainly see more of those in upcoming months if things stay this way.

Only way I'll support held attack nerf is to make same changes to shields, aka the longer you hold shield up the more damage shield takes or something like that.

Also, what happened with removal of forceshield from horseback, you said you're going to do it?

Banok`s reaction to the same matter..

shield was already most op weapon in the game. i would definitely reroll shielder now if it wasnt so mind numbly boring to play. guess I could go archer or just quit playing all together.

Lance couch is back to one hit.

Banok`s reaction when he found out that you cant block while kicking

and how are you supposed to fight face hugging shielders now? kicks? nope. greatmauls? nope.

They should have at least made kicks easier to land.


GTX after a small nerf in the stats of all GS

Time to go polearm, since danish/german is useless.


Just imagine a patch that balances 2h class with the other classes..

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Offline Tibe

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Re: Lobbyism
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2013, 09:31:06 pm »
+2
Easy really. Cause getting stabbed in the face by a 2hhero isnt half as maddening as getting shot by some dude 500 times, who you know you can rip to shreads in less than 1second if you could catch him, but you cant.

I belive 2hs and such are more in the game than other class players. Cause as ranger you just pick some high spot and start landing shots and looking out for enemy rangers and backstabbers from time to time. Or if you shielder you just keep turteling more if you get too scared. Shieldless infantry have to be slightly more aware than others. But somehow 2h is still OP as hell.

Offline The_Bloody_Nine

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Re: Lobbyism
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2013, 09:32:34 pm »
0
Most ranged don't dare to lobby because they know it is a more shitty experience to helplessly die from projectiles than in a way where you can get the satisfactory feeling of fighting back.

Offline Apsod

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Re: Lobbyism
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2013, 09:34:39 pm »
+7
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Offline Leshma

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Re: Lobbyism
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2013, 09:39:36 pm »
+4
Panos, you have some serious issues. I thought you were cool, but something is terribly wrong with you man.

Offline Panos

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Re: Lobbyism
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2013, 09:43:27 pm »
+4
I have a serious issue against 2handers.

They get on my nerves.
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Offline Joker86

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Re: Lobbyism
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2013, 10:01:52 pm »
+41
I just want to know why are the bad guys always melee players.

I can tell you. But it is a difficult matter, which will lead to a wall of text, but you asked for it, so don't complain.


In cRPG we have three basic classes (="metaclasses"): Infantry, Ranged and Cavalry.

On battle mode, we are fighting as teams, which means there are other players fighting with us against a similar number of enemies. This already changes quite a lot, compared to a pure 1vs.1 situation. Your teammates have an impact on your gameplay.

For example, cavalry helps each other out by distracting the enemy. Sometimes, when I spawned late with my pikeman, I got killed by cavalry. Usually a pike makes you invulnerable towards melee cavalry, but when there are three or more of them, you can't keep track of all of them, and sooner or later one of them will see and use the chance to backstab you. This happens quite automatically, because as cavalry you are pressing W constantly and are riding around, clicking whenever there is an opportunity to attack.

Archers, on the other hand, usually tend to choose good shooting positions, and somehow instinctively stick together. As a map usually has only few good shooting positions, you find a lot of archers there. The thing with archers is, that they support each other exponentially. Which means that every archer more supports all the other archers equally. The more archers there are already, the more archers the additional archer will support, which means the overall support delivered by every additional archer becomes bigger and bigger = exponential. You can see it very well in strategy games. If you reach a certain amount of Space Marines, they can kill an endless amount of charging Zerg.

Now let's see infantry. Infantry can support each other only to a very limited extend. You can be supported in melee only by three or four teammates at the most, given that two of them are pikemen, for example. Additional infantrymen won't help you, as they don't have that radius of action to support you. And in difference to ranged and cavalry, the differences within the infantry meta-class are quite drastic! There are shieldmen, hoplites, pikemen, twohanders and crushthrough infantry, to name only the most important classes. compared to the cavalry and ranged metaclasses their gameplay differs quite radically. While all cavalry and all ranged share the same strengthes and weaknesses, infantry depends much more on teamplay than other classes. You need a shieldman to be protected from ranged, and you need a pikeman to be protected from cavalry. And then you need a two hander or something like that to dish out some damage.

So basically we can say, that infantry has the POTENTIAL to not be countered by anything, but counter everything themselves, but on the other hand it has the REQUIREMENT of tactics and teamplay to do so, which the other metaclasses do not have, at least not to that extend. Which means, that playing infantry always requires more brain (overview, planning, tactics, discipline, etc.) than playing the other classes.

Next to that basic difference of infantry compared to cav and ranged, there is another aspect, which is linked somehow: infantry is the "reacting" class, while cavalry and archers are rather "acting" classes. This has to do with the rather barely measurable aspect of "flexibility" of the different classes. I would say the main element of that flexibility is the choice of your target. Due to the high speed of their horses and the long range of their bows/crossbows, cavalry and archers are able to pick their targets, and usually you pick those which are easy ones. Infantry doesn't have the chance to pick easy cavalry or archer targets very often. It happens only when the cavalry or archers are very unaware, which is definitely less likely than being surprised by a rider or hit by an arrow in the middle of the battlefield. Another aspect is being able to evade enemy attacks, which infantry can't do much about, except of always facing attacking cavalry or dodging/blocking incoming projectiles (with a shield). Or hiding at a safe spot and being basically useless and experiencing a rather boring game, limited to watching the (usually ugly) textures of some rock, tree or ruins.

Edit: also the time you actually fight matters. When the round starts, cavalry spurs their horses and shortly after is already stabbing at targets, until they get downed, if at all. Archers start, run a rather short distance until they find a good position and start shooting. They shoot until they need to displace, and even while displacing they can shoot and keep on fighting, at least if they have a little bit foresight and move in time (so they don't need to actually run away). Infantry gameplay consists mainly of running after targets and checking the surroundings, while the actual melee fights don't occupy that much of their playtime. At least less compared to cavalry and archers.

This leads to the situation where infantry is actually all the time in danger and needs awareness all the time, whereas cavalry and archers can very well estimate when they are rather safe and when not. This leads to the impression of infantry, being somehow the "cannonfodder" or the "fool" on the battlefield. They are limited to the choice of targets which AGREE to be attacked by infantry, which was especially obvious before the kiting nerf. Together with the inability of infantry, to attack and kill certain classes (especially ranged cavalry), which unfortnately is the goal of the game, this leads to regular frustration for infantry players.

All those problems which I mentioned were more or less only adressed by balance tweaks, usually in form of stat nerfs for ranged and cavalry classes. But stats don't change anything on the problems I mentioned above, cavalry can still pick their targets, archers are still able to shoot over distance, and infantry is still limited to reacting instead of acting.

If you ask me for a solution, I can only repeat the solution I came up with long time ago: change battle more to conquest mode! Infantry would have a new task which would be much better accomplishable, because it is easier for infantry to conquer and hold terrain instead of catching and killing a horse archer. Next to this it would give infantry some kind of common focus, instead of that blurry goal of killing all enemies, leading to infantry scattering all over the place in the desperate attempt to turn their reacting into acting.

If something is unclear, please ask by rephrasing what you understood, instead of flaming me instantly and wasting a lot of time to write something I probably agree with. In any case I can say that I did not want to give any evaluation about any class, the skill needed to play it or their justification in the game. I just wanted to point out the differences in gameplay for those classes.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2013, 11:40:35 pm by Joker86 »
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Elindor

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Re: Lobbyism
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2013, 10:05:46 pm »
+2
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:shock: tldr

....someone had to say it  :wink:

---

EDIT :  OK I DID READ IT. 

What Joker says on this is all 100% true imho.  Very well thought out and presented my good sir.

Fact of the matter is that infantry is forced to be MORE ORGANIZED relative to archers or cav to perform.  Archers cluster on a hill together to force multiply and cavalry streak across the maps...neither requiring a huge amount of organization.  In Strat battles, infantry form shieldwalls, etc...and sometimes this happens in battle, but not often since its often largely pubs and no common TS is being used. 

I agree for this reason that a conquest mode would UNIFY THE EFFORTS of the infantry (which are meant to take and hold ground) and "help" them use more teamwork naturally.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2013, 10:14:41 pm by Elindor »
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Re: Lobbyism
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2013, 10:14:03 pm »
+11
which will lead to a wall of text...

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Re: Lobbyism
« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2013, 10:14:21 pm »
+4
I dont really know how to approach this topic without making people butthurt but lets take the famous archery disputes as an example here:

Every archer is a melee by default. Instead of having the luxury of armor and bigass lightsabers and 10 PS oneshot builds, archers need to learn to fight with peasant equipment to be of any good as shooting alone will get you killed almost every round. Melees however, whenever there is a balancing discussion about ranged, dont even seem to know the basics of archery. I cant imagine a single person ( honestly ) saying that archery is easier than a melee class and still everyone is calling for nerfs. How can this behavior be anything else then lobbying ?

When I play with my lvl29, nonloomed 2h alt the game is fun. It is fun because I dont have to fight as if my life depends on it. With my 2h alt, I am a hunter. I dodge horses with ease, dodge projectiles with ease, catch up to archers with ease and simply outfeint, outspam, outfootwork my oppenents. I have full control over what is happening and taking advantage of my capabilities. If I do a mistake ? Not a problem, probably just lost like 30% HP. The whole gameplay feels totally arcade-game like with my 2h, letting me win the fights I do not deserve to win.

When I switch to my lvl 34, +3 bow +3 arrows archer however the game is not nearly as fun because I am restricted as shit. One error and I am dead. 5 seconds of unawareness and I am dead. Agi shielder looks at me and melee teammates are busy chasing enemy horsearchers ? Dead ! Round started, trying to stay with my teammates but they outrun me in heavy armor. Contrary to my 2h alt where I am the hunter, playing my archer I always feel like the prey. I cant dream about engaging something since I am to busy to simply survive all the autokill counters in the game. If a medium 2h inf runs at me and I shoot my slow-motion arrows at him, which then inflict 30 % dmg each, it is my responsability to make every of those arrows connect. However no melee with an average reaction time of less than 0.5 seconds will manage to run into arrows that often.

It doesnt stop there:

Stationary target 20m away. I aim carefully and I miss with 174 wpf. Why ? Because some people cryed too much about accuracy.

I shoot some guy 4 times in the body with fully loomed bodkins and longbow while he wears a kuyak just to get oneshotted by his greatsword right after. Why ? Because some people cryed too much about damage.

I try to hit some guy having an epileptic seizre 5 meters away from me, sadly his spazzing limbs move faster than my slow-motion arrows. Why ? Because some people cryed too much about missile speed.

I am chased by some plated flamberge spammer, who can spam his flamberge faster than I can swing my handaxe, which also would glance 95%. I realize that the game simply does not let me win in that situation and I decide to flee. Cant, plated guy outruns me and oneshots me. Why ? Because some people cryed too much about running archers.


Still, instead of doing anything usefull like trying archery yourself, all you see is nerfthreads. They dont even have anything to complain about and still are to unchallenged masters of whine. Its simply getting more and more of a routine. Melee wants something -> instead of using his brain to analyse his errors he goes to the forum and lobbies about it. And now tell me how you could even wonder why meleeplayers are being accused of being lobbyists so much.

Let the butthurt begin.
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