Cavalry Nerf.... WHY

[Magikarp]

If it makes you feel better, it isn't easy to actually hit someone with a couched lance. Like, I rarely use it, except for the occasional epic, head on, horse on horse charges.

Somebody said that the lance was an effective weapon on foot. That person is false. The reach really doesn't matter when the actual attack is epicly slow. You can only attack from two directions, btw. Oh, and if they're too close, the extra length screws you over and your strike bounces.

A person with a lance, if attacked by somebody with a real infantry weapon, will probably die in a one on one fight. Don't talk about fighting with a team, because I almost never manage to get back to my team after being dehorsed.

It requires training, yes, and is only to be used against idiots. I know exactly on who I can use it, just by looking at their play style. Trying to couch an adept or higher skilled player always results in death or in failure if im lucky. Skilled players are only to be stabbed the normal way.

[Keshian]

You don't think cavalry can be OP because you see it from the perspective of a solo cavalryman.  In reality you will often have 5 or 6 riding together in a pack (far worse when strategus comes out where almost all battle maps are wide open for cav) and it doesn't matter how aware you are of cav, even if you spend your entire time walking around with a pike rather than actually meleeing and fighting, cav teams will just stay just out of range on their arabian horse or courser and then as you turn to face one the other will move in with a lance almost as long as your pike to stab you in the back or trample you whereupon the others converge like jackals, if the first one didnt get enough speed to one-shot couch you.  Thats true even when you have 4-5 infantrymen trying to work together.  Pretty much you have no choice as infantry but to give up any melee weapon for the sake of pikes adn travel in fearful packs to be decimated by opposing infantry (who thankfully have more and better cavalry on their team so bring real melee weapons and rape you.  Its not that different from pre-Jan. strategus battles where herds of archers would work together, people would say just get a shield (like saying just get a pike) but it wouldnt matter because you could get 5 or 6 together and they could angle fire behind your shields.

The big issue is not balance 1v1 but in large fights with large groups of each class, and in that case with the recent serious nerfs to every other class, yes cavalry has become OP and an imbalancing factor.  i think the complete removal of lollancing was too much but it was a step in the right idea that soemhow cavalry needs to be rebalanced to adjust to other classese being hevily nerfed.  persoanlly I think how much riding affects speed (now that its 3 agility per riding) and manueverability is the ideal place to start and should be cut in half.  The reasoning is that when you do see 34-2 scores its because some guy has a champion courser/arabian horse with 8 riding skill just riding 100 yards or more in less than 4 seconds so even if you just checked behind you they will still hit you by complete surprise.  Thats not real skill there, but game mechanics.  Whereas skillfull lancing would not be affected by such changes as you actually have to rely on accuracy rather than unrealistic speed.

[Magikarp]

You don't think cavalry can be OP because you see it from the perspective of a solo cavalryman.  In reality you will often have 5 or 6 riding together in a pack (far worse when strategus comes out where almost all battle maps are wide open for cav) and it doesn't matter how aware you are of cav, even if you spend your entire time walking around with a pike rather than actually meleeing and fighting, cav teams will just stay just out of range on their arabian horse or courser and then as you turn to face one the other will move in with a lance almost as long as your pike to stab you in the back or trample you whereupon the others converge like jackals, if the first one didnt get enough speed to one-shot couch you.  Thats true even when you have 4-5 infantrymen trying to work together.  Pretty much you have no choice as infantry but to give up any melee weapon for the sake of pikes adn travel in fearful packs to be decimated by opposing infantry (who thankfully have more and better cavalry on their team so bring real melee weapons and rape you.  Its not that different from pre-Jan. strategus battles where herds of archers would work together, people would say just get a shield (like saying just get a pike) but it wouldnt matter because you could get 5 or 6 together and they could angle fire behind your shields.

The big issue is not balance 1v1 but in large fights with large groups of each class, and in that case with the recent serious nerfs to every other class, yes cavalry has become OP and an imbalancing factor.  i think the complete removal of lollancing was too much but it was a step in the right idea that soemhow cavalry needs to be rebalanced to adjust to other classese being hevily nerfed.  persoanlly I think how much riding affects speed (now that its 3 agility per riding) and manueverability is the ideal place to start and should be cut in half.  The reasoning is that when you do see 34-2 scores its because some guy has a champion courser/arabian horse with 8 riding skill just riding 100 yards or more in less than 4 seconds so even if you just checked behind you they will still hit you by complete surprise.  Thats not real skill there, but game mechanics.  Whereas skillfull lancing would not be affected by such changes as you actually have to rely on accuracy rather than unrealistic speed.

Cavalry is a support class, they should be good when aiding teammates. Your whole point that we didnt get nerfed is just ridiculous. A pack of infantrymen can counter horsemen easily.

Similarly, a pack of mixed troops, with infantrymen, archers and horsemen is always how teams are composed. Cavalrymen can counter other cavalrymen, or can get shot by archers or can get piked.

[naduril]

Keshian, it always joy for me to read your posts:) Really, it delivers usually:D
As you say 34-2, it of course can be overloomed cav with mw heavy lance and champion horse. But it can be achieved with not a single loomed item. And it happens not due to OP, but due to skill. I know about 4 or 5 really good horsemen. Others die quickly, escpecially with good teamwork of infantry and archers.
And the best anti-cav is HA. So I would love to hear your ideas about nerfing cav and HA as well.

[Rumblood]

You don't think cavalry can be OP because you see it from the perspective of a solo cavalryman.  In reality you will often have 5 or 6 riding together in a pack (far worse when strategus comes out where almost all battle maps are wide open for cav) and it doesn't matter how aware you are of cav, even if you spend your entire time walking around with a pike rather than actually meleeing and fighting, cav teams will just stay just out of range on their arabian horse or courser and then as you turn to face one the other will move in with a lance almost as long as your pike to stab you in the back or trample you whereupon the others converge like jackals, if the first one didnt get enough speed to one-shot couch you.  Thats true even when you have 4-5 infantrymen trying to work together.  Pretty much you have no choice as infantry but to give up any melee weapon for the sake of pikes adn travel in fearful packs to be decimated by opposing infantry (who thankfully have more and better cavalry on their team so bring real melee weapons and rape you.  Its not that different from pre-Jan. strategus battles where herds of archers would work together, people would say just get a shield (like saying just get a pike) but it wouldnt matter because you could get 5 or 6 together and they could angle fire behind your shields.

The big issue is not balance 1v1 but in large fights with large groups of each class, and in that case with the recent serious nerfs to every other class, yes cavalry has become OP and an imbalancing factor.  i think the complete removal of lollancing was too much but it was a step in the right idea that soemhow cavalry needs to be rebalanced to adjust to other classese being hevily nerfed.  persoanlly I think how much riding affects speed (now that its 3 agility per riding) and manueverability is the ideal place to start and should be cut in half.  The reasoning is that when you do see 34-2 scores its because some guy has a champion courser/arabian horse with 8 riding skill just riding 100 yards or more in less than 4 seconds so even if you just checked behind you they will still hit you by complete surprise.  Thats not real skill there, but game mechanics.  Whereas skillfull lancing would not be affected by such changes as you actually have to rely on accuracy rather than unrealistic speed.

Truth spoken.

Magikarp, what are you smoking? Cav is a "support" class? The only support class in game is a pure xbow build.

[Keshian]

Keshian, it always joy for me to read your posts:) Really, it delivers usually:D
As you say 34-2, it of course can be overloomed cav with mw heavy lance and champion horse. But it can be achieved with not a single loomed item. And it happens not due to OP, but due to skill. I know about 4 or 5 really good horsemen. Others die quickly, escpecially with good teamwork of infantry and archers.
And the best anti-cav is HA. So I would love to hear your ideas about nerfing cav and HA as well.

Yes, I'm not denying that you get 34-2 by being bettter than average (and I know youa re a good EU cav Naduril, I've seen you play, but you've been playing long enough now don't you have a mw lance and a champion horse???), but as the only time I ever see scores that high (maybe its different in the EU) is people I know for a fact (checked horses/equipment after they die) are good cav players that also have champion coursers or arabian horses, with a masterwork lance or heavy lance beside their horse.  And watching them ride, rough estimate somewhere between 7-9 riding skill.  They can turn corners at full gallop with that equipment and riding skill and ride far faster than a horse would in real life where you might have time to react, turn and stab.  This is easier to do quite well then when people had lower riding and normal horses, namely it took less skill for these good players to pull it off now then before. 

Honestly since riding is every 3 agility instead of 6 agility (pre-January) just halve the riding bonus and problem would be solved.  Mostly this is needed not because they were a problem pre-patch with throwers 1 to 2-shotting those fast cav, but because the number of throwers is rapidly decreasing since the patch (far less ammo too), the xbows/bows have far less ammo and as an archer you often need to hit a horse 4 times to kill it when all they have to do when they see is an archer is couch a lance as all the 1 slot items have almost no range.  Far fewer people with pikes because any time they engage in melee they drop them automatically.  The new patch changes have made cavalrya  new OP class and soemthing needs to be balanced, they went too far and then gave back the lollance so in the end the main nerf never ahppened and so cav is quickly beginning to dominate most battle servers and once strategus is up these issues will be multiplied threefold by broad open plains maps with spawn killing at high rates possible.  Horse archers would also be nerfed by this change as they would be slower on their horses and less maneuverable making them more vulnerable to archers (HA generally more lightly armored than traditional cav so easy to kill by bows/xbows). 

Basically the cavalry have lost a lot of predators and gained a lot of prey with the new patch and their population will explode and they will become too dominant on the battlefield unless balance is restored.

[PhantomZero]

No. Slowing down the already slow horses to almost a crawl? The horses already got a speed nerf when riding provided the bonus. Horses can round corners and do complete turns a lot easier than you might think, have you ever seen an equestrian competition?

People still carry around pike and merely drop it when engaged in battle, then pick it back up when the melee threat has passed.

[La Makina]

I've posted a suggestion. Please have a look if you have not already.
http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,4901.0.html

The idea is to limit insta-kill polearm attack (LMB) due to the speed bonus. As a consequence, cavalry would rely more on couching the lance and organised attacks instead of solo raids (teamwork and structured warfare should be encouraged imo). Another effect is that cav would need to invest into Power Strike (and Strength) to increase lance damage on polearm attack, thus reducing the Agility+Riding optimization.

Note to cav players: before voting NO and smoking my awesome bar: it is coherent and it does not weaken the cavalry which would remain the most dangerous. Certainly, some riders would not reach a 34-2 K:D ratio. Also, it could be coupled with other ideas (buffs, increase speed, upkeep reduction...). Just suggest them.

[Camaris]

I used to wear a pike every round in battle now i cant even take a spear without losing my shield.
Most 2-Hand players have lost their abiltiy to wear pikes.
Most 1-Hand players dont wear pike anymore.
Most Archers dont wear pike etc. etc.

Thats a massive change in comparsion to prepatch.
Its a massive indirect buff for Horseman.

[Magikarp]

Seriously, I challenge every single idiot that says that cav is easymode to a duel, right now, on the duel server, both mounted. Let's see how easy it is.

And yes, I've seen players like Tommy and Oberyn top the boards with their loomed Sarranid Horses and Lances. But where does the problem lie? Not in the class as a whole, but in the way that the Sarranid Horse gives you manouverability. Plus the fact that they mostly prey on the weak to get their kills. If you ask them, they will reply to you that riding is a semi-useless skill compared to powerstrike, an opinion which I share. A good cavalryman won't go for anything lower than 6 ps, and that's a fact, 7 riding gives you nothing, yet 7 powerstrike gives you that little edge that you might need to finish off your opponent.

People seem to be forgetting that cav received the same heirloom nerfs, same slot nerfs, same drop ons sheath nerfs, a heavy lance nerf, shield skill increase, etc.

[Tzar]

Kesh 6 agi for 1 riding was too much..

I prefer the current amount since it ruins the whole gameplay watching a  a guy in peasent clothing riding and armored horse....

People who wanted to become cav basicly was only able to function on the horse as soon as they where dismounted they where total useless..

[Rumblood]

Seriously, I challenge every single idiot that says that cav is easymode to a duel, right now, on the duel server, both mounted. Let's see how easy it is.

If you are wanting to challenge them to prove their point, then duel, but you dont get a mount. You get an archer, a thrower, a 1h/shield,or 2 hander or even any of the shorter polearms. Then lets see how well you do 

[Seawied]

If you are wanting to challenge them to prove their point, then duel, but you dont get a mount. You get an archer, a thrower, a 1h/shield,or 2 hander or even any of the shorter polearms. Then lets see how well you do 

+1 for logic.


On a side note, my eyes are going to be sore tomorrow from all this exercise they are getting from being rolled after Magikarp's "U R NOOB! I DUELZ YOU!" posts.

[PhantomZero]

Well I mean the primary of purpose of cavalry is to run down troops that are spread out and disorganized. Of course people by themselves in an open field are going to get run over.
Cavalry get shut down as soon as they decide to group up.

[Vibe]

Cavalry get shut down as soon as they decide to group up.

This. Stick with your group and no cav lance will ever be a threat to you.