This double hit business

[Teeth]

Shielder is definitely not underpowered compared to 1h or 2h now, it's is going to get a massive buff by the turn rate rework, so I really think shielders have very little to complain about.

Then, when a shielder wants to actually kill someone, he will have the pleasure of being s-keyed and hiltslashed constantly. Also it is the only unit that is relatively weak to cav even when prepared.

You can't s-key and hiltslash. To hiltslash you need to facehug. If you get outspammed as a shielder you are doing something very wrong. My experiences with a 98 speed 1h was that I could spam a lot of people myself. Also, rightswing is greatsword length with a 100+ range 1h.

[Prpavi]

To be honest untill EU_1 is a rangedfest all the patches are more or less in vain.

[Pentecost]

I agree with what Largg is saying. For two-directional polearms that aren't geared towards cavalry, is it possible for you to consider either making a separate formule, changing around the item weights, or adding a straight modifier (1.3x for example) at the end of the equation for them?

Here are some values, for the sake of discussion (all values assume weight at +0 heirloom level):

2h:

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Miaodao: 8.5
Longsword: 10.2
Long Iron Mace: 7.3
German Greatsword: 7.86
Great Axe: 9.32

1h:

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Liuyedao: 11.72
Military Cleaver: 9.23
Warhammer: 10.85
Italian Sword: 10.82
Broad 1h Battleaxe: 11.87

Polearms:

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Hafted Blade: 10.62
War Spear: 9.9
Long Hafted Spiked Mace: 7.68
Glaive: 7.16
Poleaxe: 7.56
Long Spear: 4.3 -> 5

I'd say these values look very good so far. However...

2d Polearms:

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Swiss Halberd: 6.72
Awlpike: 7.5
Corseque: 6.6
English Bill: 4.52 -> 5
Partisan: 6.16
Long Voulge: 5.3

Not a single one of them can even turn as well as a Poleaxe, despite the fact that they're supposed to be geared towards overheads and stabs. Frankly speaking, that's pretty bad. This isn't just me cherry picking examples either; none of the dedicated two-directional polearms, which is to say any of the two-directional polearms that cannot be used on horseback or with a shield, can outturn a Poleaxe. With the addition of a modifier though...

2d Polearms w. 1.3x modifier:

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Swiss Halberd: 8.74
Awlpike: 9.75
Corseque: 8.58
English Bill: 6.3
Partisan: 8.01
Long Voulge: 6.89

With the exception of the Long Voulge and Bill, I think those are pretty good values relative to other weapons. For those two specifically, you could consider dropping their weight by .5kg for the Long Voulge and 1kg for the Bill to arrive at a turn speed of around 8.1 for both weapons.

[Kafein]

You can't s-key and hiltslash. To hiltslash you need to facehug.

You can potentially be the victim of any, and must be ready to defend against both. That is, blocking much more and much faster than 2h or poles.

If you get outspammed as a shielder you are doing something very wrong. My experiences with a 98 speed 1h was that I could spam a lot of people myself.

It's a mix of small things, if you use a 1h that isn't that fast, not very long, that you have some armor etc. you can become very slow and indeed fighting hiltslashers can be a pain. Not even mentioning kicks.

Also, rightswing is greatsword length with a 100+ range 1h.

It only looks like it because you have better timing and movement speed. Try to do that with a fast 2h/pole that knows what he is doing.

[Erzengel]

1vs1 shielder is at disadvantage because of short range and additional weight.

However, cRPG is not based around dueling, and 1vs1 situations are rare. Even if 1vs1 comes up in battle he can just delay the situation by going defensive until his buddies arrive.

Shielders in siege and battle are especially OP:
- In siege, one shielder vs 20 enemies on flag can stop capturing. Usually they will go undetected for couple of seconds because under flag is real clustefuck, but when they are detected, couple of TK's will occur in the crowd.
- In siege as attackers, shielder rush is most powerful type off attack as they can push to the flag without getting hurt. Clans like HRE and Greys are so good at this that sometimes they will capture the flag in first minute.
- In siege as defenders, shieldwall bonus appears so they can block certain areas with great sucess and take away precious seconds needed for capturing flag.
- In battle, ganking is especially OP with shielders which is fine except that when you try to gank 1 shielder he can retreat with his shield up for quite a while and usually this is enough for someone to come and help them out.

- One shielder can only hold a flag for several seconds if attackers are stupid. Most of the time you will die after a few seconds (like people without a shield).
- Shielders can't simply rush to flag without being hurt. Again it is only possible if the enemies fail.
- Shieldwalls are nice but can only hold for a certain time, need teamwork (doesn't happen too often) and can be countered quite good by kicks or crushtrough (there are lots of mauls on siege).
- Only a shielder with really high agility or very light armor can gank you unless you are slow as fuck. Same goes for shielders getting ganked. 2h/pole can just turn around and run away which is much more effective.

[NuberT]

We'll have a more sophisticated turnrate handling next patch.

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Currently the  turnrate is 7 during an attack. Native is 14.
With the change it will be:

1h_turnrate   =clamp(14-0.15*weight-0.06*(length-75), 7, 14)
2h_turnrate   =clamp(14-0.14*weight-0.08*(length-90), 5, 11)
pole_turnrate =clamp(13-0.18*weight-0.04*(length-140), 5, 11)
weight in 0.1kg

Example: short sword [weight=10; length=81; 1h]
1h_turnrate(short sword)=clamp(14-0.15*10-0.06*(81-75), 7, 14)=12.14

Example: great maul [weight=80; length=68; 2h]
1h_turnrate(great maul)=clamp(14-0.14*80-0.08*(68-90), 5, 11)=clamp(4.56, 5, 11)=5

I seriously hope long maul gets finally a damage buff to compensate this - damage output is already a joke compared to pretty much all other weapons. After this overhead will be useless, unless you are on top of a ladder..

[cmp]

[cut]

With the exception of the Long Voulge and Bill, I think those are pretty good values relative to other weapons. For those two specifically, you could consider dropping their weight by .5kg for the Long Voulge and 1kg for the Bill to arrive at a turn speed of around 8.1 for both weapons.

This turn rate formula is temporary, as soon as we break compatibility with the old client we will make it possible to specify turn rate per-weapon. There is no point in adjusting item stats because of the formula.

[Teeth]

I seriously hope long maul gets finally a damage buff to compensate this - damage output is already a joke compared to pretty much all other weapons. After this overhead will be useless, unless you are on top of a ladder..

Long Maul has always been a joke compared to the Great Maul, to the point that I as a polearmer prefer the Great Maul over the Long Maul. The longer reach has very little use as with the limited turnspeed and the amazingly slow speed, anyone can sidestep his way out.

Even now Long Maul deserves a buff, just compare the stats, it's silly really.

Another point, seeing as looming some items increase the weight, that is kinda disadvantageous with this, but I guess it's temporary until compatibility is broken. I never found more weight that much of advantage anyway, because it slows you down more than it prevents stun.

[Erzengel]

Shielder is definitely not underpowered compared to 1h or 2h now, it's is going to get a massive buff by the turn rate rework, so I really think shielders have very little to complain about.

You are right. With that change shielders really have very little to complain about. Without it 2h and pole were superior. Now the melee classes should be balanced quite well (besides some very fast weapons that could now need some rebalance).

[Pentecost]

1vs1 shielder is at disadvantage because of short range and additional weight.

However, cRPG is not based around dueling, and 1vs1 situations are rare. Even if 1vs1 comes up in battle he can just delay the situation by going defensive until his buddies arrive.

Shielders in siege and battle are especially OP:

http://c-rpg.net/index.php?page=battlesupcoming#!?page=battleroster&id=1932
http://c-rpg.net/index.php?page=battlesupcoming#!?page=battleroster&id=1916
http://c-rpg.net/index.php?page=battlesupcoming#!?page=battleroster&id=1857
http://c-rpg.net/index.php?page=battlesupcoming#!?page=battleroster&id=1769

These are some recent battles that were linked in the Mercenary Recruitment section. Across all four of them, there was only one battle where a shielder was at the very top of list for either side. Even if you consider the top 5 for both sides rather than just 1st place, you'll still find more 2h than shielders, which, as Smoothrich said, is how it should be. For the most part, I think shielders are fine where they are and don't need any buffs, nerfs, or changes, now that turn speed is going to be reworked and 1h thrust might become more useful again.

[Erzengel]

Long Maul has always been a joke compared to the Great Maul, to the point that I as a polearmer prefer the Great Maul over the Long Maul. The longer reach has very little use as with the limited turnspeed and the amazingly slow speed, anyone can sidestep his way out.

Even now Long Maul deserves a buff, just compare the stats, it's silly really.

Another point, seeing as looming some items increase the weight, that is kinda disadvantageous with this, but I guess it's temporary until compatibility is broken. I never found more weight that much of advantage anyway, because it slows you down more than it prevents stun.

More weight is actually a huge advantage. You get more knockdowns/chrushtroughs and it is easier to stun other weapons and shields (especially Long Maul uses hold attacks very much).

[Teeth]

More weight is actually a huge advantage. You get more knockdowns/chrushtroughs and it is easier to stun other weapons and shields (especially Long Maul uses hold attacks very much).

Well, my german poleaxe has no knockdown or crushthrough, so the movement speed decrease is really more important. Stunning weapons used to be somehow removed from the game. I couldn't even stun a wakizashi with a long bardiche, even though I did held overheads. I think that was a bug, lately stunning seems to work again.

[Pentecost]

This turn rate formula is temporary, as soon as we break compatibility with the old client we will make it possible to specify turn rate per-weapon. There is no point in adjusting item stats because of the formula.

I see. So when you break compatibility, you plan on dispensing with the formula and manually adjusting every weapon's turn speed? Or will you only be doing that for weapons that are outliers under the formula? Well, either way, I'm rather excited for this change and glad that you guys considered trying it. It should really help to make each weapon feel like it handles a little differently from other weapons of the same type, which is a good thing in my book.

[NuberT]

More weight is actually a huge advantage. You get more knockdowns/chrushtroughs and it is easier to stun other weapons and shields (especially Long Maul uses hold attacks very much).

Yes weight increase is important for crushthrough, but it doesn't matter for stun, since long maul is too slow to get advantage of that . Altough blocking speed is so slow, that I am often too slow/stunned to block the second swing of several weapons myself, but especially 1h left-swing. Actually I hate fighting good shielders with long maul, when they just turtle I need 4-7 overheads, while they need 2 left-swings to the head..

[rustyspoon]

I never claimed shielders get the best KDR, but when there is enough of them, there simply is no counter, they will turn the tide of battle, be it strat, battle or siege.

In siege especially, crowdfarming(holding block while in close proximity to combat) gets them valour more often than others who have to fight to get theirs.

Honestly, if you have roving bands of shielders completely dominating the servers you are playing on...you must have some terrible players there. Or maybe no one has ever heard of an axe or a crushthrough weapon?

Overall I think the classes are pretty well balanced. I do find it funny though when some 2-hander or polearm user says that 1h is OP and easy mode, switches to 1h and then rage-specs out of it an hour later.