Potential WPF / WM Changes

[Uumdi]

Hey, I know its been talked about a lot, and if I've heard correctly devs have been discussing what to do with weaponmaster + the wpf curve to give more incentive for the skill and for balanced builds.

Most likely they could take away the wpf gained on level up so that you are forced to pump a couple points into weaponmaster if you want to maintain your 100-120 wpf in a single weapon skill.


It'd be a fair decision, absolutely.  Several people were discussing how it'd really affect hybrid builds though, and not really make weaponmaster 'better', but would make strength builds 'worse'.  What I think might be nice is having ranks, much like the old Baldur's Gate games.

Rank 0 - Untrained - suffer a set penalty      (or the equivalent of 1 wpf now)

Rank 1 - Proficient - Negates basic penalty   (60  wpf)
Rank 2 - Specialized - Small bonus                (100  wpf)
Rank 3 - Master - moderate bonus                (120  wpf)
Rank 4 - High Master - larger bonus              (150  wpf
Rank 5 - Grand Master - even larger bonus   (170 current wpf)

It would be a simple system in practice, it would just take balancing.  Just an idea, but the ranks could cost 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5, respectively, or perhaps set a plateu at 3.  You'd have 1 to spend at level 1, and then get another every 15 levels, so two more in any character's career.  Each rank of weaponmaster would give you 1, and perhaps another point for every 6 agility.  This would give agility a passive benefit, much like the +1 hp of strength. 

A balanced 18/18 build would get 3 + 3 + 6 = 12 points to spend, allowing him to get Rank 4 in one weapon skill, or rank 3 in 2 seperate weapon skills.  *On second thought, with the numbers I laid out, that's right about where it is now.  FML.  Maybe Rank 5 of weapon master starts giving you 2 weapon skill points - a small bonus to a 24/15 build who doesn't want to go 21/18 for the 6 agi multiple bonus, but doesn't want to go 27/12.*

This way weaponmaster is just as beneficial at rank 1 as it is at rank 7.  Right now, only pumping 2-3 weaponmaster isn't as significant as pumping 7 - but players pumping 7 aren't seeing enough benefit when they could spend those 7 points into the static benefit of ironflesh, that gives 2 hp every rank.


Just thoughts.  Don't scream at me.  I'm going out for coffee so I'm gonna edit this later and leave it as a shit post for you to tear apart.

[[Ant]]

I dont see why under the current system wpf cuts out at 199.

I think after a certain point each level of weapon master should give you the same bonus to wpf. Another issue is the free wpf this is the single most broken thing in cRPG. It should not be 111 it should at absolute most be 60-80. If you decide to roll a sumo wrestler build you should have to pay the price.

running 3 WM compared to 4 is a grand total of 8 wpf this is outright ridiculous.

[Froto_the_Loc]

I always like how it was in Native, that you needed weapon master to increase your proficiency any further.
Kinda sounds like what you are suggesting.

[Malaclypse]

I always like how it was in Native, that you needed weapon master to increase your proficiency any further.
Kinda sounds like what you are suggesting.

Also, there were only two ways to gain prof: passively via agility, and through the use of arms. I always thought the first one would be a rad idea to even out Strength and Agility; Strength gives you the ability to use most weapons and all armor and gives a passive health bonus, Agility increases movement speed and gives passive WPP gain.

[Uumdi]

Yeah, reading it again, my values are really bogus.  Had to cut it short because I had a summons to Dunkin Doughnuts.  111 bugs the shit out of me too.  Pure str should still get some wpf, in the roleplaying sense, from using the weapon repeatedly.


Honestly, it would be sweet to have to level it up through actual use of the weapon, but grinding is already enough, I'd imagine.  I did, however, use a shortened spear till level 15 this gen, and magically got 100 1h wpf all at once though hahah.


Passive wpf boost from agi, rather than level would be nice.  Probably a simple system to work with.

[San]

In this ranking system, 1 point for leveling (maybe even 2), points for agility, and max 3 for a rank seems good. A max rank of 5 or 6 seems nice to me, too. I don't think there needs to be more than 180-190 wpf. Extra WM would be for hybridization/ maybe give 2 points after level 5 in WM or so.

Str builds with no agility would get 60 wpf.
No WM builds would get up to 100 (except if very high agility)

It will take 12 points to rank 5. With 1 point from level up, it would take a 24 agi build and 7 WM. With 2 points from leveling, 21 agi and 7 WM. I guess there is leeway for rank 6.

EDIT: Would also change the ranks to 125 wpf from 120 and 175/180 from 170, to match what pure builds can get with WM and a high level.

It would be nice if WM could do more than just give wpp if it wants to keep 0 WM builds under 100, pures with high wpf above 160, and middle of the road/hybrids ~120-140, then wpf allotment could be more freely given to agility points or what have you. I made a thread about it affecting WM reduction of armor, but that left out lightly armored melee fighters.

[Paul]

Current wpf gain is done like this afaik:

Code: [Select]

wpf_0 = 25
delta_wpf_WM = (20+10*WM)    #for increasing WM by one
delta_wpf_lvl = 5 + (lvl-1) DIV 5           #for increasing lvl by one
with DIV being (Euclidean) integer division(5 DIV 2 = 2), ignoring the remainder
total_wpf= wpf_0 + sum(delta_wpf_WM) + sum(delta_wpf_lvl)


For total wpf gain over the whole career one can develop the following equation:

Code: [Select]

total_wpf = 5*WM*(5+WM) + 25 + 5*lvl + max((lvl-5), 0) + max((lvl-10), 0) + max((lvl-15), 0) + max((lvl-20), 0) + max((lvl-25), 0) + max((lvl-30), 0) + max((lvl-35), 0) + ...

total_wpf = 5*WM*(5+WM) + 25 + lvl*(5+((lvl-1)DIV5)) - 5/2*((lvl-1)DIV5)*(((lvl-1)DIV5)+1)
(can't get my head around a better simplification for the lvl based wpf atm, sry)
example: level 26; WM=4 =>
total_wpf = 5*4*(5+4) + 25 + 26*(5+((26-1)DIV5)) - 5/2*((26-1)DIV5)*(((26-1)DIV5)+1)
total_wpf = 180 + 25 + 26*(5+5) - 5/2*(5*(5+1))
total_wpf = 180 + 25 + 260 - 75 = 180 + 210 = 390
We think about getting rid of the lvl based gain. Maybe totally, maybe not. Suggest new delta_wpf formulars.

[Panos]

I don`t know, but I feel that an increase on wpf bonus will only increase the spam on the servers and decrease the actual skill..

spam > skill..

(click to show/hide)

2H class it is then!

[Leshma]

Current wpf gain is done like this afaik:

Code: [Select]

wpf_0 = 25
delta_wpf_WM = (20+10*WM)    #for increasing WM by one
delta_wpf_lvl = 5 + (lvl-1) DIV 5           #for increasing lvl by one
with DIV being (Euclidean) integer division(5 DIV 2 = 2), ignoring the remainder
delta_wpf = wpf_0 + delta_wpf_WM + delta_wpf_lvl
For total wpf gain over the whole career one can develop the following equation:

Code: [Select]

total_wpf = 5*WM*(5+WM) + 25 + 5*lvl + max((lvl-5), 0) + max((lvl-10), 0) + max((lvl-15), 0) + max((lvl-20), 0) + max((lvl-25), 0) + max((lvl-30), 0) + max((lvl-35), 0) + ...

total_wpf = 5*WM*(5+WM) + 25 + lvl*(5+((lvl-1)DIV5)) - 5/2*((lvl-1)DIV5)*(((lvl-1)DIV5)+1)
(can't get my head around a better simplification for the lvl based wpf atm, sry)
example: level 26; WM=4 =>
total_wpf = 5*4*(5+4) + 25 + 26*(5+((26-1)DIV5)) - 5/2*((26-1)DIV5)*(((26-1)DIV5)+1)
total_wpf = 180 + 25 + 26*(5+5) - 5/2*(5*(5+1))
total_wpf = 180 + 25 + 260 - 75 = 180 + 210 = 390
We think about getting rid of the lvl based gain. Maybe totally, maybe not. Suggest new delta_wpf formulars.

That's just one part of the problem. Other is the way we spend those points. Imho, pure str builds (3AGI, 0 ATH/WM) should get 0 wpf to toy with. Those with 1 point in WM should get around 40w wpf, with 2 WM around 75 wpf and with 3 WM 100 wpf. If people want to have super high amount of HP points (having more than 90 HP combined with high armor rating is almost game breaking), they have to swing slower than they are doing now.

Further scaling should go to 175 wpf where should be cap (because there's a lot of people with 80 ping and higher and german players with high wpf have huge advantage over those players just because they live close to the server).

Now to the fun part. As someone who has been playing 18/18 hybrid build (100 wpf in 1H/poles/2H) last gen, I have to say that's the most fun I've ever had in cRPG. I truly don't understand why are you continuously nerfing those builds and promoting pure builds which are dull and boring and one of the reasons why there is less players these days. Is it because of Strategus balance?

Also, if you nerf str builds there will be more agi builds which are almost as lame. While STR builds crutch on plate and use Great mauls (only easier to use melee weapons currently are Glaive and Greatsword), AGI builds abuse S key like mad. You need to do something about backpedaling damage. My suggestion, if possible, is to make it glance a lot every time player execute attack while going backwards.

Give more love to balanced builds and make extreme builds less appealing. Change the way players perceive attributes and skills. Bring skills in focus, make attribute points less attractive. That is builds diversity, not number of builds made from combinations of STR, AGI, IF, PS and Athletics as dominant factors in average player's build.

[Ujin]

I'm an all -time hybrid player and recently retired to do a 21/18 build with 6 WM again. At lvl 33 (my end build) i'm supposed to have ~140 wpf in 1h and ~ 90 in polearms. Makes me a viable but not a totally op hybrid. I'd like it to stay that way if you bring changes to the wpf mechanics.
I get alot of wpf from leveling up though, should be the other way around. People who invest in WM should see the benefits. Just my two cents.

[Panos]

I'm an all -time hybrid player and recently retired to do a 21/18 build with 6 WM again. At lvl 33 (my end build) i'm supposed to have ~140 wpf in 1h and ~ 90 in polearms. Makes me a viable but not a totally op hybrid. I'd like it to stay that way if you bring changes to the wpf mechanics.
I get alot of wpf from leveling up though, should be the other way around. People who invest in WM should see the benefits. Just my two cents.

High WM means High Agility and high agility means endless spamming..

[Leshma]

Exactly, that's why I think high WM should be choice for hybrid builds. Not a way for people to reach over 200 wpf in single category or archery to get their pinpoint accuracy back.

As Ujin pointed out, 6 WM which is quite a lot of points spent, isn't enough for more than 125 wpf in both categories (which is around 100 when you take armor reduction into account). I think it should be enough for 3 x 125 wpf or 2 x 150.

AGI builds don't have that many weapons to choose from and I would like to see some weapons changed (Steel Pick for example), their str reqs raised. Light, fast but doing low damage; heavy, powerful but slow and doing high damage. Fast/slow in both ways (movement speed, weapon speed). Currently, there are some broken combinations that don't stick to this simple rule.

[Ujin]

I think it should be enough for 3 x 125 wpf or 2 x 150.

That's a bit too much imo. If someone goes for a pure build this amount of speed bonus + wpf is actually almost like the 2 -3 extra ps that they'd lose, especially for 2handers. I would say ~x2 130-135 for 6 wm is fine.

[Tomas]

2 simple changes -

1) Change level based wpf to agility based wpf and change DIV5 to DIV10
delta_wpf_agility = 5 + (lvl-1) DIV 10           #for increasing lvl by one

2) Increase wpf_0 to 75 from 25
wpf_0 = 75

If my maths is right this means
total_wpf = 5*WM*(5+WM) + 75 + lvl*(5+((lvl-1)DIV10)) - 5/2*((lvl-1)DIV10)*(((lvl-1)DIV10)+1)

Some basic builds
@ level 30, 3 Agility, 1WM = 120 total_wpf (currently 280)
@ level 30, 6 Agility, 2WM = 175 total_wpf (currently 320)
@ level 30, 12 Agility, 4WM = 322 total_wpf (currently 430)
@ level 30, 18 Agility, 6WM = 508 total_wpf (currently 580)
@ level 30, 24 Agility, 8WM = 748 total_wpf (currently 770)
@ level 30, 30 Agility, 10WM = 1020 total_wpf (currently 1000)
@ level 30, 36 Agility, 12WM = 1353 total_wpf (currently 1270)

As you can see low agility builds will suffer most, whilst only the stupidly high agility builds that can't use most armours or weapons will actually benefit (and then only slightly).  Meanwhile the mid agility builds will suffer slightly but when converted into actual wpf then the difference is negligible.  Shown below

12 Agi, 4WM
322 total_wpf = 123 actual_wpf
430 total_wpf = 138 actual_wpf

18 Agi, 6WM
508 total_wpf = 147 actual_wpf
580 total_wpf = 154 actual_wpf

24 Agi, 8WM
748 total_wpf = 170 actual_wpf
770 total_wpf = 172 actual_wpf

Personally I find these changes minimal and within reason since 12 Agility is still pretty low whilst 123wpf is enough.  My usual hybrid build is 18/21 with 7WM.  In the past this gave me 130/120 actual wpf whilst now it will give me 124/120 hybrid wpf.  I can live with that.

EDIT: Some other possible builds to get 280ish total_wpf (the current minimum for level 30). 
12 Agi, 3WM = 262 total_wpf
15 Agi, 3WM = 280 total_wpf
21 Agi, 2WM = 277 total_wpf
so there's still plenty of ways to get to the 115ish actual wpf which people have proved to be enough for cRPG builds

[Zlisch_The_Butcher]

Personally I believe the best solution to the wm/wpf issue would be flattening the curve so that a 10wm build could get 222 wpf, this'd overall speed up combat for all builds 'cept for 0wm ones, and they'd be just as fast as they are now. Unfortunately this would however nerf hybrids even further, my response to that would be doing so that it's at least 75% cheaper to get wpf in one skill if you already got wpf above that amount in another skill, which would make it a lot easier to hybrid out than it is now.