Should the Strategus Viewer be allowed?

[Zlisch_The_Butcher]

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First of all, I have not officially commented on this yet - on purpose. I wanted to keep it in a grey areay (no pun intended). Which means using it is not forbidden and will not be punished, but it could be "outlawed" eventually. The clear difference to multiaccounting here is that it has been stated multiple times that multiaccing/acc sharing is against the rules, and if you do it, you're fucked.

In general, I am usually open to client side customisations. Strategus (at least the map part) was created so it's very easy to read the data automatically. I could have encrypted or obfuscated it to make it really hard to decypher stuff, but decided against it because I actually like people modifying it - like Chort did, for example.

Is this thing an advantage? Hell yes it is. But having active players is also an advantage, that doesn't mean you have to give active players to the enemy. That's why I also see no real issue with not giving that program out. For me, a line would be crossed when it would automatically log into accounts, or do automated actions without actually having to be online (=botting).

My gut feeling is that this is very advanced, but at this point, is not against the rules, and I like it that people actually put so much effort into client side customisations. So in my opinion, it's ok (although I WILL nerf the view range on mountains)

However, if the community as a whole decides that they don't want this to be allowed, I will accept this and outlaw usage of the data like this.

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PS: this is no final decision yet, either way

-chadz

So, since Anders closed his thread and since the poll result was quite negative I figure someone should open a thread and finish the poll.

What it is:
This is what it is:

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Strategus Viewer
basic Line of Sight sharing, as seen in many Strategy games. The information shared is diminished from what a player sees in his spotting range.
The parties which are additionally seen consist of Troop Count, Player Name, Faction Color and if the party leaves the spotting range his last position which is fading out(getting trasnparent) over a duration of 18 hours.
That information would be shared like this, people need to have installed the addon, be registrated to our website and need to be online. [NOTE THAT SOMEONE POINTED OUT THAT ALL A PERSON WOULD NEED WOULD BE SOME COMPUTER ON AND A SIMPLE SCRIPT TO REFRESH THE STRATEGUS WINDOW EVERY FIVE MINUTES AND THEIR FACTION COULD ALWAYS SEE THEIR LINE OF SIGHT]

-Kinngrimm
History:

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From some point in time which I can't quite recall and ain't gonna go looking for (pretty sure it was three months ago) wolves brought this tool into its first working state, at this point only wolves were using it, pretty sure already here they had asked the dev team whether it was ok though. Later on at some point in time along with improvements into the product it was also introduced to more testers, which was arguably bad as the testers purely consisted of the eastern carebear bloc and Hospitaller. The bloc have used it for quite some time and the product first became known to the public after it was given to nordmen and they showed the thing in an argument with Gingerpussy, I'm pretty sure they were quitting or something at that time and Kinngrimm gave it to the them to make them stay, ain't sure though so do not take this as fact. Now, after the entire shitstorm of UIF and random people being pissed at eastern and wolves for using the "3rd party program giving a gigantic advantage" wolves finally released the product to the public in this ( http://bundle of sticksrategus-enhancment-project/ ) thread.

Basically to sum it all up I'd say that the eastern carebear bloc developed and used third party programs to gain an advantage that may or may not be severe, however wolves did intend on eventually giving it to everyone, and Kinngrimm says that the reason he only gave it to eastern was that he needed testers he trusted.

-Me.

Something chadz said: ...

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Second, it seems that clan relationships are deciding stances in this discussion. This is really not helpful at all. I know it's hard to do, but try to judge it from an objective point of view.

@Nessaj, I see your point, but I am just having a different opinion. I mean there are people sitting down and writing tools, extensions, for a game that many like to play, but has a crude UI, to make it easier to use. This is, in my opinion, awesome. I really love that. I maybe should have stated more clearly from the beginning that I like it when people do that, and I want to encourage it, not prevent it.

...

What I'm saying is, extending a game can be beautiful, and can really enrich the game as a whole. I always considered strat a community project, believe it or not, and I'm always happy when people do stuff that I didn't have the time to do (shared view wasn't done because of server capacity).

Random relevant threads:
http://bundle of sticksop-whining/
http://bundle of sticksrategus-enhancment-project/
http://bundle of sticksing-or-no/
http://forum.meleegaming.com/diplomacy/anti-uif-troop-collection-competition-(eu-dhirim-area)/

Please try to keep this thread somewhat civilized unlike what happened to the others, let's try and get a final decision on the matter.
Oh and I'm ending this poll the 25th, morning.

[Haboe]

Zlisch, topic is rather unclear, use quotes instead of spoilers ;)

I don't really care for it, if its done developing and works perfect i wouldn't mind it being implemented by the devs into the site (like what happened with the eye-candy thing strat look)

[Zlisch_The_Butcher]

Zlisch, topic is rather unclear, use quotes instead of spoilers ;)

I don't really care for it, if its done developing and works perfect i wouldn't mind it being implemented by the devs into the site (like what happened with the eye-candy thing strat look)

Still need spoilers but added quotes to make it clearer.

[kinngrimm]

please make separated notes with informations instead of including them into quotes.

[Casimir]

Since when did we live in a democracy. If chadz didnt like it he would have banned it straight out. He will have said that to appease the public. Do not be fooled by the ploys of the dictator.

[CrazyCracka420]

I personally don't think tools that allow you to see what others in your faction see should be allowed.  If that's the case, then we should pack it up and turn this into a single player game.

If they want to make it easier to communicate what you see with your leaders, they can implement tools for that directly into strategus (like "officers orders" or a messaging system that doesn't require you to use the main c-rpg site).  Or allow a user to easily send a screen cap to their officers.

But I think that removing the need for people in the faction to communicate what they see to their higher-ups, is a bad thing.  It removes the fog of war even more.

And going one step farther, I whole-heartedly disagree with the dev's decision in strat 4 to allow fief information to be seen no matter how far away from the fief you are.  I think it should be like strat 3, you have to be relatively close to see fief information.

God forbid you'd actually need a scout or a messenger or a reason to use diplomacy for trading (or gathering information).

[Haboe]

Still need spoilers but added quotes to make it clearer.

I meant like actual quotes, not pieces of text in an empty quote Wanna see in what context they are said, where and when they are said, and if its accurate what you quoted

If you make a topic combining other ppl's words make sure you do it like a sir 

[Zlisch_The_Butcher]

I meant like actual quotes, not pieces of text in an empty quote Wanna see in what context they are said, where and when they are said, and if its accurate what you quoted

If you make a topic combining other ppl's words make sure you do it like a sir 

To much damn work, they can be found in the random links included, dig them up yourself.

[GuiKa]

So, since Anders closed his thread and since the poll result was quite negative I figure someone should open a thread and finish the poll.

46.7% Against

53.3% For

It was positive =)

[CrazyCracka420]

46.7% Against

53.3% For

It was positive =)

By a tiny majority...hardly a mandate to allow such programs as these to be openly allowed for use.  Especially considering how many strat players don't check these forums.

[Zlisch_The_Butcher]

46.7% Against

53.3% For

It was positive =)

Well, just saying but the vast majority of the ones that voted for it still considered the way you went by doing it completely unacceptable.
And actually that is wrong, 9.8% voted for a link to one of chadz posts, as in, voted randomly.

[kinngrimm]

...
Second, it seems that clan relationships are deciding stances in this discussion. This is really not helpful at all. I know it's hard to do, but try to judge it from an objective point of view.

@Nessaj, I see your point, but I am just having a different opinion. I mean there are people sitting down and writing tools, extensions, for a game that many like to play, but has a crude UI, to make it easier to use. This is, in my opinion, awesome. I really love that. I maybe should have stated more clearly from the beginning that I like it when people do that, and I want to encourage it, not prevent it.

...

What I'm saying is, extending a game can be beautiful, and can really enrich the game as a whole. I always considered strat a community project, believe it or not, and I'm always happy when people do stuff that I didn't have the time to do (shared view wasn't done because of server capacity).

as you provided some nice quotes so i thought this one also shouldn't be left out

EDIT:

Well, just saying but the vast majority of the ones that voted for it still considered the way you went by doing it completely unacceptable.
And actually that is wrong, 9.8% voted for a link to one of chadz posts, as in, voted randomly.

the different options for the poll in the other thread had been changed in the middle of that discussion, therefor the actual opinions behind those options to chose from may differ from the last stated options.

[Zlisch_The_Butcher]

as you provided some nice quotes so i thought this one also shouldn't be left out
Added
EDIT:the different options for the poll in the other thread had been changed in the middle of that discussion, therefor the actual opinions behind those options to chose from may differ from the last stated options.
Pretty sure he reset the vote counts then, if not, Anders shouldn't be allowed to make polls.

[highglandeur]

9.8% voted for a link to one of chadz posts, as in, voted randomly.

It wasn't random voting at all, it was pointing out that the mighty god said he would tell us what the fuck he thinks of it later but that so far he agreed for us to use it, so it was a yes until decided otherwise by devs, don't make a mockery of our donkey democracy you goat loving prophet of doom!

[Tanken]

I personally don't see anything wrong with it. It's a coordination tool more than anything. Perhaps one change I'd make to it is the highlighting of other tokens outside your proximity you can normally see, simply because that seems odd in a way. Other than that, seeing your troops, and ally troops moving and all that jazz doesn't bother me.