So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?

[Cris]

It's not a major buff. How the hell would it slow down the play? If anything allowing HA to actually get some kills would make the game go faster.

No point keeping a class UP and stopping them from becoming a little less UP. You can't get rid of HA unless they are removed from the game. So if they are going to be included they should be able to do something.

Yup and even then it's a gamble. Same as shot gunning lancers head on for speed bonus. You miss and it usually means you're dead/almost dead. Bump shooting successfully every time is also very difficult.

I agree with that post entirely, I almost posted something similar in the original post.

Cepeshi, I would love to see you playing HA and doing well at it, shooting while moving and topping the scores.


There is a reason I posted the videos and pictures. Taking off the WPP penalty for using HA skill will by no means what to ever make us as accurate as foot archers, not even close.

And HA do have lots of counters:

Archers, throwers (any melee can be thrower), crossbows, smart shielders... In a city map anyone can kill us...We have no defense vs ranged, and if they get us when going forward, we are killed in one shot.

Now, people say we are unfair in an open map? Well, what about looking at it the other way, HA sucks at siege, it sucks in small maps, it sucks in very hilly small maps. The penalty even applies on foot.

Certain play styles have no defense in a open situation in a one to one vs HA, that is like cav complaing that pikes kill them, or shielders saying that axes break their shields

i have 7 ath and i cannot dodge to Cris or Corsair, they seem to hit with every arrow

Please look at my video, at the end you will see a shot that goes completely to the right, if you were riding a plate charger, it would have still missed.

I dont know how people do not get this, we are not asking for a massive buff, but a tiny change which could make the class more enjoyable. It will not ruin gameplay, it will not make life horrible more horrible for unprotected melee, its a tiny change. If any melee class was half as nerfed as HA, there would be uproar in the forums

Yes, the HA skill is UP. No, it should not be buffed again...

Again? Lol ...it has never ever been buffed, ever. I've been playing for longer than most people here, so I know. It has been nerfed when targeted as a class, and it has been nerfed when archery as a whole has been nerfed. Nerf nerf on top of nerf has led us to what the class is now, a joke.

[JackieChan]

And thats why i never post on forums, beeing forced to respond to post like this...
There is so much flaws in this post that i dont know where to start. Ill just go point by point and try to be as brief as possible:

You can't balance mechanics with effectivity.
Horse archers being not only invulnerable but also unavoidable for a lot of classes in a lot of scenarios is definitely a mechanics problem, especially since those classes at a disadvntage are supposed to kill every enemy, inlcuding the HA.

1) The whole point of horse archery is to be able to "hit and run"; to reach this objective they need to sacrifice so much skill points that they are virtually useless in any other situation. Why call this a "mechanics problem"?  All the classes are best in certain situations, not just HA.

I saw a lot of wrong arguments here (use brain/teamplay to fight HAs? And how much brain and teamplay do HAs need?), but except for that one in the brackets I refrain from answering them, as there is no point in doing so and I don't want to make the post even longer.

2) Of course you need the ability to adapt and cooperate to fight an enemy when he has a strategic advantage. and yes, it takes experience and teamplay to play as a HA and be effective.

Yes, the HA skill is UP. No, it should not be buffed again, it wouldn't solve the general problem at all. You will have to wait and see what the WSE2 will bring, but unless the devs change something in the mechanics area, your lousy deadlyness has to stay Cris, as the "least terrible" solution we have atm.

3)"buffed again" ha.


EDIT: i could reply to the rest of that post but "I refrain from answering them, as there is no point in doing so and I don't want to make the post even longer." ( i loled when i read this)

[BADPLAYER_old2]

I've played a gen of HA on my main and a good amount on STF/alt and in my opinion it doesn't need an accuracy buff or anything, it just needs some damage normalization. What I mean by that is, a HA can 2-4shot someone with a normal build in light armour, however if that same dude wears plate suddenly it takes 10+ shots to kill them which is just ridiculous.
I tested HA damage with the common 15/24 build with a friend of mine who is 27/12 in rus scale +3, mail gauntlets +3 and an unloomed sugarloaf helm. It took me 15body hits to kill him or 5headshots on average which basically means for me there is 0 point shooting at him in a battle situation and on a +3 destrier I bet my bumps do more damage at speed than my arrows (+3 bodkins with +3 horn bow)

I don't know how you would fix this since you wouldn't want HAs killing people in str builds and heavy armour in 5 body shots, but I really think FIVE headshots to kill a dude is just retarded.

Maybe more experienced HA's feel different considering I only have probably 2gens total playing HA and even though I think i'm "ok" at it i'm nowhere near any of the good ones.

[Joker86]

1) The whole point of horse archery is to be able to "hit and run"; to reach this objective they need to sacrifice so much skill points that they are virtually useless in any other situation. Why call this a "mechanics problem"?  All the classes are best in certain situations, not just HA.

I said EXPLICITELY that I do NOT think that the hit and run part should be changed. And you didn't get what I meant. It's completely irrelevant how many skill points you had to spend. The mechanics was referring to styles of fighting, and horse archers are in general much more flexible in who to fight (and choosing who NOT to fight!), where to fight, when to fight and so on than most other classes. In fact they are the most flexible class in the game. Yes, they are useless when they can't do the hit and run thing, but they can do it most of the time. Not all the time, but most.

The problem is, that "hit and run" is the most effective way of fighting. It is superior to all the other playstyles in the game, which lead to that fatal nerf that took almost all of your offensive capabilities.

2) Of course you need the ability to adapt and cooperate to fight an enemy when he has a strategic advantage. and yes, it takes experience and teamplay to play as a HA and be effective.

Tell me one class which does NOT need these virtues.

Let's do it the other way around: tell me the equivalent situation for a horse archer to the following scenario: a two handed player on the open field against a horse archer.

Tell me a situation where a horse archer can NOT prevent an enemy of attacking him as long as he wants, without the horse archer being able to fight back at all.

This is what I meant with: you can't compare the need of teamplay for infantry to the need of teamplay for HAs. The extend is way too different.
 

3)"buffed again" ha.

You nerf a class, then you buff it again. It was not meant as "buffed yet another time"... but you knew it, you just wanted to bitch around 

EDIT: i could reply to the rest of that post but "I refrain from answering them, as there is no point in doing so and I don't want to make the post even longer." ( i loled when i read this)

Great decision to minus someone and write a bitchy answer although that person thinks that being a HAs at the current state of the game is absolutely pointless, and the class is nerfed to oblivion, thus deserving a buff. I say: "Yes, HAs need love, but your idea is the wrong one", and you answer me "You asshole, you are dumb as shit" with an incredibly arrogant way. Seriously, I am disappointed and kind of hurt.

If there was a change to the game which rendered "hit shoot and run" less useful (note: not less effective!), I would be the first one to support a buff for HAs, both in damage and accuracy, and since the upkeep patch I was supporting to make cavalry not only playable for rich players. But since you prefer showing how stupid I am, I will take my hat and leave this topic. I hope the HA problem will be fixed soon, just for Cris, because he is a nice guy. I don't care for the rest.

[jtobiasm]

Tell me a situation where a horse archer can NOT prevent an enemy of attacking him as long as he wants, without the horse archer being able to fight back at all.

On foot, we have no ps and no athletics. (unless high level 31+)

"without the horse archer being able to fight back at all" is a retarded thing to say. Everyone can fight back but I can guarantee 98% of the time the HA will lose is a 1v1.

[Joker86]

That's a bad comparison, because when a HA is on foot there already went something wrong.

[jtobiasm]

That's a bad comparison, because when a HA is on foot there already went something wrong.

When a guy is in the middle of a field and getting shot by a HA then cries about it asking for HA to be removed and saying they are OP.
I guess something went wrong there too.

[pingpong]

What we need is horse throwery not hoarse arsery am i right??

So reset HA and cav skills to the point before nerf, and make throwing more accurate/useful on horseback, because horse thrower/javalry is atm the only REALLY EFFECTIVE counter to HA's, that way they would remain quite balanced and we, non-homosexual normal people  wouldnt get so angry.

[Joker86]

When a guy is in the middle of a field and getting shot by a HA then cries about it asking for HA to be removed and saying they are OP.
I guess something went wrong there too.

Sometimes you spawn on open plain maps or have to cross open terrain. That's not the fault of the player.

[jtobiasm]

Sometimes you spawn on open plain maps or have to cross open terrain. That's not the fault of the player.

You sir are actually retarded and ignorant.
You must really QQ when you see a HA. 

[Cris]

Regardless on the situation, there is another point: When dehorsed (which is easily done) HA still have to live the HA WPP penalty, thats another unfairness on the class.

[Joker86]

You sir are actually retarded and ignorant.
You must really QQ when you see a HA. 

Really great way of behaviour. Report post? Hmmm... no... just give a fuck.
Really, every HA player in this forum except of Cris has an incredible arrogance concerning his class, and is unwilling to accept that the absolutely superior mechanics of horse archers (attacking over range is better than attacking in melee, and being on horse is better than being on foot => better mechanics than all other classes) are incredibly annoying to everyone else. Never mind if it's Overdriven, Mylet or you now.

Regardless on the situation, there is another point: When dehorsed (which is easily done) HA still have to live the HA WPP penalty, thats another unfairness on the class.

Agreed.

[jtobiasm]

Really great way of behaviour. Report post? Hmmm... no... just give a fuck.
Really, every HA player in this forum except of Cris has an incredible arrogance concerning his class, and is unwilling to accept that the absolutely superior mechanics of horse archers (attacking over range is better than attacking in melee, and being on horse is better than being on foot => better mechanics than all other classes) are incredibly annoying to everyone else. Never mind if it's Overdriven, Mylet or you now.

Why so serious?

[JackieChan]

You nerf a class, then you buff it again. It was not meant as "buffed yet another time"... but you knew it, you just wanted to bitch around 

Actually no, i really thought you meant buff again, and it suprised me, thats why  i replied like that. What i would say is: "You nerf a class,  then you buff it" but anyway, it doesnt really matter anyway.

Great decision to minus someone and write a bitchy answer although that person thinks that being a HAs at the current state of the game is absolutely pointless, and the class is nerfed to oblivion, thus deserving a buff. I say: "Yes, HAs need love, but your idea is the wrong one", and you answer me "You asshole, you are dumb as shit" with an incredibly arrogant way. Seriously, I am disappointed and kind of hurt.

I minused your post because i didnt agree with it. And made a post which was, i agree not very friendly, to explain why i didnt agree with you. It wasent meant as an insult or anything like it. You shouldnt take things like this personnaly, its just a forum discussion

Really great way of behaviour. Report post? Hmmm... no... just give a fuck.
Really, every HA player in this forum except of Cris has an incredible arrogance concerning his class, and is unwilling to accept that the absolutely superior mechanics of horse archers (attacking over range is better than attacking in melee, and being on horse is better than being on foot => better mechanics than all other classes) are incredibly annoying to everyone else. Never mind if it's Overdriven, Mylet or you now.

We are not arrogant (well at least i hope not), we are just kinda fed up and fustrated from all the hate and QQ our class generated, which at the end resulted in so many nerfs that most (including me) old horse archers rage quitted the class.

And for the few times that we ask for rebalance of the class and we see so much people posting against it, we tend to react like this for the rest of the topic:

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[Tindel]

nerf HA even more, so people stop playing it at all