So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?

[Cepeshi]

A tree is a worst case scenario. Fact is it's used if you are caught out on your own and you need a way to survive. But it was an example of how plenty of things can be used to block arrows. You can dodge easily with heavier armour. I've seen plenty of people do it. Spin around all over the place makes them pretty hard to shoot. Sure you may hit an arrow or two but it's not worth the effort and it's dangerous for an HA to hang around one target to long so if you start doing that there's a good chance the HA will move on.

My favourite alt is a hoplite and at the moment the class I play most when I do play crpg. So I call bullshit on that as I've never ever had a problem against HA with it. Step to the side to avoid the arrow and stab as they try the bump. Easy peasy.

Regardless, when it got to the point where I was getting more kills with my horse than with my bow I decided to start playing other classes more.

you read it wrong, i said shield is useless UNLESS you play hoplite, cause hoplite is the only class that can do something, or very, very good onehander


and bows are not UP, when i gallop same direction as HA chasing me, my horse gets shot for half HP by one arrow, non loomed courser, i got hit with like 55 body armor for 1/3-1/2 hp by the same guy, and i cannot count how many times i got shotbumped to death, so no, bow is very useful for taking away HP so the horse can finish off the rest 

[JackieChan]

as usual no argument to come back with so you just mock me, gg man, gg

what "argument" you said just before is used by so many people i had to respond with that, its harsh i know.

Anyway what i mean by  "having a brain and knowing how to teamplay" if i actually have to explain to you what that mean, is stick with your team in a open map, protect the ranged in general since they are the one who can reach HA at long rang, dont go in the open alone, otherwise of course you are going to get raped by not only HA, but any cav class in general.

[Overdriven]

you read it wrong, i said shield is useless UNLESS you play hoplite, cause hoplite is the only class that can do something, or very, very good onehander


and bows are not UP, when i gallop same direction as HA chasing me, my horse gets shot for half HP by one arrow, non loomed courser, i got hit with like 55 body armor for 1/3-1/2 hp by the same guy, and i cannot count how many times i got shotbumped to death, so no, bow is very useful for taking away HP so the horse can finish off the rest 

My mistake.

Half health...really?  Because when I'm shooting coursers it feels like it takes a good 4 arrows to take one down unless with a head shot. Destrier's are horrible from that pov.

[Cepeshi]

what "argument" you said just before is used by so many people i had to respond with that, its harsh i know.

Anyway what i mean by  "having a brain and knowing how to teamplay" if i actually have to explain to you what that mean, is stick with your team in a open map, protect the ranged in general since they are the one who can reach HA at long rang, dont go in the open alone, otherwise of course you are going to get raped by not only HA, but any cav class in general.

been there, tried that, but recently with low pops on EU1 its very very annoying the amount of ranged cav, and not even sticking together helps in some cases, i seen how three or four HA/HXs took down like 10-12 people who sticked together, cause everytime you had to face some other way and opened up for other, the HA does not particularly need to cooperate even,but the infantry would have to be quite well coordinated to santd a chance

My mistake.

Half health...really?  Because when I'm shooting coursers it feels like it takes a good 4 arrows to take one down unless with a head shot. Destrier's are horrible from that pov.

yes, my horse goes down in two arrows if i manage to somehow get good speed bonus in my favor, if we go head on or meet in corner or something it takes even one arrow...

[Grumbs]

Buffing HA will not lead to a more fun Battle experience for the majority of players. It will give another outlet for roof camper/kiter style players, and just slow down the whole gameplay even more. A viable counter to a class shouldn't be to simply wait for flags or see who can camp longest while the ranged play their own little mini game

We will be back to square one..no point reducing archer/xbow speed and then making HA stronger

[JackieChan]

Oh and did i mention the fact unless you play hoplite even shield is useless against HA? Oh sure, i forgot. He rides on you, if you uncover yourself, you get shot, if you dont, you get bumped and shot, so, yeah, not OPed at all.

Ive seen just a handfull of HA able to do that, its called training and hours of gameplay, nothing OP about that.

as usual no argument to come back with so you just mock me, gg man, gg
not really, you are accurate the same on foot as on horse, if not more, if someone has it easy teamplaying then its archer, stick to guy with spear and few shielders and close range pew pew can commense (i do have archer alt)

Have you actually played HA at all? if yes you should know that on foot you are absolutly useless, jsut a small distraction to the enemy team. You deal no dmg due to the low PD, no PS, no atlethics.

[jtobiasm]

not really, you are accurate the same on foot as on horse, if not more, if someone has it easy teamplaying then its archer, stick to guy with spear and few shielders and close range pew pew can commense (i do have archer alt)

We have 0 alth so we can't kite. Also arrows weigh you down now so unless we drop our arrows we can't run away. Also a foot archer will or should have ps. We have none. We are horse archers not foot archers.

[Zlisch_The_Butcher]

Oh and did i mention the fact unless you play hoplite even shield is useless against HA? Oh sure, i forgot. He rides on you, if you uncover yourself, you get shot, if you dont, you get bumped and shot, so, yeah, not OPed at all.

Shields block even while you're not actively blocking, get a shield and l2aimitwhileattacking is for once actually an argument.

[Cepeshi]

Ive seen just a handfull of HA able to do that, its called training and hours of gameplay, nothing OP about the class in general.

well, a handful of them is all it needs to get this noticed, and recently more and more are able to do it, when i tried HX on STF i managed to kill a few like that aswell, so not that hard id say, or i was just lucky

We have 0 alth so we can't kite. Also arrows weigh you down now so unless we drop our arrows we can't run away. Also a foot archer will or should have ps. We have none. We are horse archers not foot archers.

so you say other should be specced in some way yet tou are free to choose? you do not need PS to be effective, just some random weapn that can block and run away to safety of your team blocking, you are not forced to melee, but i am forced to get shot to pieces with no real way how to prevent it

Shields block even while you're not actively blocking, get a shield and l2aimitwhileattacking is for once actually an argument.

very easy to do, yes

Have you actually played HA at all? if yes you should know that on foot you are absolutly useless, jsut a small distraction to the enemy team. You deal no dmg due to the low PD, no PS, no atlethics.

I had, even with 5 PD and lots of WPF you are quite accurate and with bodkins even deadly, you can just HS, HS, HS and instakill pretty much. I even played archer alt 15/24 sniperlike for close combat, took a while to get a hang on it, but was fun afterwards, and quite effective due to accuracy and big dmg on close range/if target runs on you. Speedbonus is a bitch.

[Overdriven]

Buffing HA will not lead to a more fun Battle experience for the majority of players. It will give another outlet for roof camper/kiter style players, and just slow down the whole gameplay even more. A viable counter to a class shouldn't be to simply wait for flags or see who can camp longest while the ranged play their own little mini game

We will be back to square one..no point reducing archer/xbow speed and then making HA stronger

It's not a major buff. How the hell would it slow down the play? If anything allowing HA to actually get some kills would make the game go faster.

No point keeping a class UP and stopping them from becoming a little less UP. You can't get rid of HA unless they are removed from the game. So if they are going to be included they should be able to do something.

Ive seen just a handfull of HA able to do that, its called training and hours of gameplay, nothing OP about that.

Yup and even then it's a gamble. Same as shot gunning lancers head on for speed bonus. You miss and it usually means you're dead/almost dead. Bump shooting successfully every time is also very difficult.

[jtobiasm]

Cepeshi, what's all the fuss about? We are only asking to make us more accurate. It's not like we're asking to have more damage or more speed on our horses.

Have you played HA Cepeshi?

[Cepeshi]

Cepeshi, what's all the fuss about? We are only asking to make us more accurate. It's not like we're asking to have more damage or more speed on our horses.

Have you played HA Cepeshi?

Yes, and i say it is accurate enough, played it for like one or two gens. More and more HAs are able to focusfire me while either riding around or standing on some hill far away(i dont take em that, that takes some skill, to snipe across half map )

[JackieChan]

well, a handful of them is all it needs to get this noticed, and recently more and more are able to do it, when i tried HX on STF i managed to kill a few like that aswell, so not that hard id say, or i was just lucky

We are talking about horse archers, horse xbowmen are another story.
Anyway as a foot man i don' have much trouble with horse archers, they are so rare on Crpg1 that seeing more than 2 on the same map is suprising.
And what do you mean "to get this noticed"? notice that they are effective in an open map against couple of 2 handers and pole arms guys while beeing totally useless in any other situation? sigh...

so you say other should be specced in some way yet tou are free to choose? you do not need PS to be effective, just some random weapn that can block and run away to safety of your team blocking, you are not forced to melee, but i am forced to get shot to pieces with no real way how to prevent it

no no no, you can do that maybe as foot archer, but not as  a dehorsed HA

I had, even with 5 PD and lots of WPF you are quite accurate and with bodkins even deadly, you can just HS, HS, HS and instakill pretty much. I even played archer alt 15/24 sniperlike for close combat, took a while to get a hang on it, but was fun afterwards, and quite effective due to accuracy and big dmg on close range/if target runs on you. Speedbonus is a bitch.

Yes, 15 24 foot archer is effective,, but 1524 HA is not effective on foot, it lacks speed and PS.
"you can just HS, HS, HS and instakill pretty much." i dunno about you, but making HS in a round is not as easy as it sounds. even as a foot archer, let alone as a dehorsed HA.

[Gurnisson]

A small buff would be nice, just not too much. Buff it too much and the servers would flood with untouchable ranged units again.

[Joker86]

You can't balance mechanics with effectivity.


Horse archers being not only invulnerable but also unavoidable for a lot of classes in a lot of scenarios is definitely a mechanics problem, especially since those classes at a disadvntage are supposed to kill every enemy, inlcuding the HA.

Lowering accuracy, damage, shot speed or other values is changing the effectivity. Which doesn't effect the mechanics mentioned above. Not at all. All the devs were doing was tweaking the attractivity of a class, lowering their effectivity to a certain level where the mechanics problem doesn't really kick in any more. Might work, but only badly, and is a terrible decision design-wise, concerning "fun" in the game. And fun is what games are about. The current solution still has less fun for the HA victims, because the same annoying mechanics are still working, like getting kited, but on the other hand the fun for the HAs is lowered as well, like having a crappy lethality.

The devs would need to either limit the mechanics of a HA (which isn't possible, I think. He MUST be riding, and he MUST be shooting from horseback while moving), or to improve the mechanics of infantry vs. HAs. Which is not impossible, but incredibly difficult. As some of you may already have expected, I again refer to the only solution I found for the problem: battle mode turns to conquest mode.

I saw a lot of wrong arguments here (use brain/teamplay to fight HAs? And how much brain and teamplay do HAs need?), but except for that one in the brackets I refrain from answering them, as there is no point in doing so and I don't want to make the post even longer.

Yes, the HA skill is UP. No, it should not be buffed again, it wouldn't solve the general problem at all. You will have to wait and see what the WSE2 will bring, but unless the devs change something in the mechanics area, your lousy deadlyness has to stay Cris, as the "least terrible" solution we have atm.