Cheating or No?

[Lt_Anders]

What this item is:

http://forum.meleegaming.com/strategus-general-discussion/strategus-enhancment-project/

[Zlisch_The_Butcher]

Best post you've ever made. Would 2+ if I could.

[Nessaj]

There's a huge difference in actual people sharing screenshots a few times a week and having an large parts automated tool do it for you in a fashionable manner.

I've also heard that this tool allows people to track enemy movement. Lol.

IMHO the worst kinds of cheating in Strategus is DUPING of any kind, which plenty have not been banned for. It offsets the whole balance of the round.
1 person having multiple accounts and using them in Strategus is also the worst kind of cheating, please DIAF
Sharing your account login is against the rules, which means you get banned obviously, fair and square, but it certainly isn't as serious a cheat as duping or the other type of multi-accounting, not even close, it completely depends on the use. This is also what many have been banned for, people who've never done anything wrong in the mod, who played 24/7 on the normal servers but unfortunately shared their login to their clan leader or who ever so that he could move them around a couple of evenings they weren't home. It is still a DUH! thing to be banned for though. (I don't support sharing of course nor have Nords ever done it).

The real problem is that loads of people are smart enough to hide their cheating well and it is essentially quite an effort to stop the various forms of cheating going on  -- in almost all games I'd presume.

However, this tool, is clearly in the cheating category, it gives an enormous edge over those factions which do not use it. In terms of usability (how much of a 'help' it would be) I would rank it together with multi accounting = worst kind of cheating.

FOG OF WAR gentlemen.

[BASNAK]

Cooties is right, +1. ~COOTIES FOR ADMIN~

[Thovex]

You mentioned AFKer on a mountain, hey look I see DaveUKR over on that mountain, didn't he quit?!

Oh right!

[Sojetsu]

still funny about angry for Union side (was in 1 of threads with merc recruitment). in 1-2-3(begining) strats there was a maybe 3-5 multiaccs. While i left Union (it was before 4 round announce) - was ~ 10 very active, 30 with few online, others 20 was multaccs or with very very seldom online (i mean 2-3 per week), what every week becomes lower and lower. idk why they joined 4 strat cos situation must was sux (idk rly, not took a part). BTW, as i saw their forum - mostly they was bored of new mechanic and few bans not made a reason for leave.

[Tyr_]

I suggest you to have a look at the number of players using this tool compared to the amount players the different factions have.

The only factions which rly use this tool (according to numbers) would be wolves or soa.

I cant speak for the other people, but i myself turned it off after 2 days. It was interesting to see how this tool works and what you can do with it, I think its a very good idea to add this to strategus as a regular function. From what i know developers were informed about this programm and also appreciate the idea of adding it to strategus.

Some basic info about it:
You roughly see what your faction members see, you can see an enemy armies, but you cant see number count, crates or status (heavy, shiny, etc...)
The idea is of implementing this into strat, so different factions can make agreements, so its basicly like a diplomacy menu as many of us know it from total war (declaring war, trade agreements, sharing vision, etc) but this is not working yet afaik, since that programm is in a very early stage.
You also can give them commands, which basicly means you send them a PM with orders which they see when they log in next time.

As you see its not nearly as good as the method the people that got banned used - sharing account info so one person can control traders, armies or even a whole, even if we would use this tool we would be depending on the members activity since they need to log into strat to actually move around. An alternative would be sending them pms on the crpg page, which actually has the same effect.

You can put it as you want, but account sharing is as big of an abuse as multiaccounting, since one persone can control a complete faction with it. this gives you a huge advantage since you are not dependent on players activity at all.

Lets just make an example with mercs&deserters for this:
Mercs have 95 members in crpg, deserters 52.
Our strat faction (apostates) has 75 members, less than mercs alone.
If we would go like vendetta,go, etc we would have 147 players in strat, each key used by another person, so they are actually no multiaccounts but, in your words, "just" shared accounts, which in fact would, thats only a rough guess, increase our productivity on strat by about 200-300%

Same goes for Nords and every other faction, you also would nearly double the amount of players in strat and moreover increase your productivity since several persons can access all accounts 24/7

[Gingerpussy]

When i got to know this we tested it alittle. We the Mercs dont really use it at all. but last days now i had to use firefox due to some shit with cRPG page. And i used it but only see myself becouse rearly is another mercs inside that program.

Anyway after talking with Kinngrim to test this i contacted the DEVS; here is the chat`s

15:33] <Gingerpussy> Hey i am writing this to be sure we dont do anything that is not good in Strategus. Kinngrim introduced us to a web site that u can see your fellow clan mates on the strategus page. Just want to know if its ilegal or not.
[15:34] <Meow> don't think there was a decision on that yet, he hit us with that as well don't think anyone said it wasn't ok to use
[15:34] <Meow> but last time third party websites were involved account hacks happened so use at your own risk
[15:34] <Gingerpussy> okey i have registerd and tryed it 1 time
[15:35] <Gingerpussy> will not use before i get a go
[15:35] <Meow> never got why he didn't just ask harald to add it into strat
[15:35] <Gingerpussy> well kinngrim told me Harald says its okey to use and that chadz knows about it
[15:35] <Gingerpussy> and yeah i agree about all using it
[15:35] <Meow> then you should be fine using it
[15:36] <Gingerpussy> well i harald word good , dont wanna get banned
[15:36] <Gingerpussy> is
[15:38] <Meow> yeah harald's word is good on that
[15:38] <Gingerpussy> okey thank you


[15:44] <Gingerpussy> Hey Harald. Kinngrim told me that you says its okey to use and test  http://strat-viewer.guiennet.com , just wann amkake sure
[15:45] <Harald> yes, guess it's fine - i had only a quick look though
[15:46] <Gingerpussy> okey, i hope you implement it for all so we dont have to use a third party add on
[15:46] <Gingerpussy> thats the risk as i see it
[15:46] <Harald> yes, i would love to continue working on strat v2, but i'm so busy in RL currently
[15:47] <Gingerpussy> ahh to bad



As you all can read i second the thought of all getting this. And while we are at it i say that mr Kinngrim set up a open beta and give out some keys for those who want to test it before they make the own decisions.

[Idzo]

Pe Nis

Thovy you are programer, why you didn't made something like that for Nords? Why you didn't tell devs about that program and asked for bans, i can see you use it too? And after all talking so much bullshit when you seen effect of program. Shame mate, shame.. I'm disappointed a lil bit..
 
Zlisch and rest of you commenting something that you didn't experienced, used or having any information about it... Good job guys!

Only thing about this program is that you don't need to upload pictures on net, everything else you can find under faction tab.

[Rogue]

Overall it's actually not that useful. You don't get 24/7 surveillance from all the connected players they need to be online and active on Strat, clicking things. You could get the same and more information talking to the people who are currently online and active anyway.

Oh and it does not let you "track" enemy movements.

Don't even try to compare that with UIF multi accounting. It's nowhere close to that. 20 multi accounts in Union in Strat 3 already, nice to know. Why am I not surprised? 

[CrazyCracka420]

There's a huge difference in actual people sharing screenshots a few times a week and having an large parts automated tool do it for you in a fashionable manner.

I've also heard that this tool allows people to track enemy movement. Lol.

IMHO the worst kinds of cheating in Strategus is DUPING of any kind, which plenty have not been banned for. It offsets the whole balance of the round.
1 person having multiple accounts and using them in Strategus is also the worst kind of cheating, please DIAF
Sharing your account login is against the rules, which means you get banned obviously, fair and square, but it certainly isn't as serious a cheat as duping or the other type of multi-accounting, not even close, it completely depends on the use. This is also what many have been banned for, people who've never done anything wrong in the mod, who played 24/7 on the normal servers but unfortunately shared their login to their clan leader or who ever so that he could move them around a couple of evenings they weren't home. It is still a DUH! thing to be banned for though. (I don't support sharing of course nor have Nords ever done it).

The real problem is that loads of people are smart enough to hide their cheating well and it is essentially quite an effort to stop the various forms of cheating going on  -- in almost all games I'd presume.

However, this tool, is clearly in the cheating category, it gives an enormous edge over those factions which do not use it. In terms of usability (how much of a 'help' it would be) I would rank it together with multi accounting = worst kind of cheating.

FOG OF WAR gentlemen.

A gentleman and a scholar sir!  I'd +2 if I could.

People complain about micromanagement, but they've made it pretty "faction" friendly in strat 4.  You can see any fief's information from anywhere on the map (which I think is really dumb in a strategy game, you should need to have someone scout a fief to see what's going on, IMO), you no longer craft goods or weapons, and everything can be bought in a fief.

Being able to see everything your member's see is a HUGE advantage.  A leader could have the AFK's in the faction all over the map and see what's going on without ever leaving their corner of the map.  They would know exactly where to attack or reinforce without ever having to talk to anyone.

If that tool gets implemented into Strat that will be the final nail in the coffin of me being active in strat.  I'll still fight in large strat battles, but I would no longer care what happened with our faction or anyone elses.

If your bane is "micromanagement"  (i.e. having one of your grunts telling you what they see) then maybe a multiplayer strategy that involves delegating tasks isn't for you.

[DaveUKR]

You mentioned AFKer on a mountain, hey look I see DaveUKR over on that mountain, didn't he quit?!

Oh right!

Hello, dear Tougheggs the conspiracy belieber.
Well. Just to make some things clear. I think that what you guys have here in this thread is just a huge misunderstanding and a rage spreading without knowing a situation (well, which can be actually seen in people who lack intelligence but that's not the case I hope).

I used to try this tool when Mercs had like 4 members there in the faction. Just a couple of facts about that tool:

1) It doesn't use your c-rpg login data (there was actually a warning to use different login and password than in crpg)
2) It doesn't give you any control of those who use it - you can't neither move anyone nor do any other actions
3) It doesn't give you real-time information on the map. When you log in and stay in strat in your browser and this tool - it posts what you see each 10 minutes. Once you log out and stay AFK - the data doesn't get updated and each blob, which is taken from tool users is marked (Transparency - older the info, more transparent the blob is; Date of info - there is a date of info with certain time when the info was taken from the member). So you can't just put afk players somewhere and see what they see in real time. That's why Mercs never could see what I see from the mountain as I don't log in.
4) That tool uses GreaseMonkey module for Firefox (like Strat Eye-candy used and such-like mods) and I don't like it (GreaseMonkey) personally as it has security issues and also lowers your browser's performance so I stopped using this tool way before I stopped playing


Basicly, that tool is nothing more than if a player just made a screenshot and uploaded it somewhere. Would you call it cheating? I doubt, that's why devs (Harald at least) said that it's okay to use it. Also that tool had some problems like blobs didn't appear sometimes plus it's utterly useless if not the whole faction uses it so by that moment I didn't see any potential in it as it was in closed test.

[Niemand]

I kinda wrote the same things DaveUKR did, but with other words... he just sent it faster.
If you still want to read it:

(click to show/hide)

As a tester I have to tell you: This tool is still in alpha or beta-phase. I was asked to signup with two or three of my members to test it. Its "invitation-only" because its a closed alpha/beta.

This tool does:
- let you see where other dots (and their names and army-sizes, not their equipment) are on the map and when they were reported there (timestamp). !Members have to log in to strat with that tool, to "upload" and "download" the data.
- let you send assignments to your members, like an email or cRPG-message. Just with a [accepted] and a [done] button. Different email-programs do have that, too. Usually Companies use that feature.

this tool does not:
- let you move your members or have ANY control over them. (Multi-accounting/accountsharing does!)
- let other clans see what your clanmembers see. (so I can see what my two people, that are using this tool, can see - not what Kinngrimm or any other wolves/soa/whatever sees.)


So... whats the difference between that tool and multi-accounting?
- You still have only one CD-key, only one strat-char. You can only generate gold/troops with this one char.
- You cant control other strat-chars than your own.

You say this is cheating and as bad as multi-accounting? Why? Just because we do not need to send screens from a to b all the time? I still need to use screens to check out in which direction somebody is moving. There are no lines on my strat-screen for other players except my factionmembers.
Its nothing more then intel-sharing and task-assignment on a higher level.

[DaveUKR]

I kinda wrote the same things DaveUKR did, but with other words... he just sent it faster.
If you still want to read it:

(click to show/hide)

As a tester I have to tell you: This tool is still in alpha or beta-phase. I was asked to signup with two or three of my members to test it. Its "invitation-only" because its a closed alpha/beta.

This tool does:
- let you see where other dots (and their names and army-sizes, not their equipment) are on the map and when they were reported there (timestamp). !Members have to log in to strat with that tool, to "upload" and "download" the data.
- let you send assignments to your members, like an email or cRPG-message. Just with a [accepted] and a [done] button. Different email-programs do have that, too. Usually Companies use that feature.

this tool does not:
- let you move your members or have ANY control over them. (Multi-accounting/accountsharing does!)
- let other clans see what your clanmembers see. (so I can see what my two people, that are using this tool, can see - not what Kinngrimm or any other wolves/soa/whatever sees.)


So... whats the difference between that tool and multi-accounting?
- You still have only one CD-key, only one strat-char. You can only generate gold/troops with this one char.
- You cant control other strat-chars than your own.

You say this is cheating and as bad as multi-accounting? Why? Just because we do not need to send screens from a to b all the time? I still need to use screens to check out in which direction somebody is moving. There are no lines on my strat-screen for other players except my factionmembers.
Its nothing more then intel-sharing and task-assignment on a higher level.

Yeah, I actually laughed at Nessaj's (Cooties) post. I've just seen a Thovex's screenshot of that tool with number of members. Mercs still have 6 there (1 of them is me and I didn't log in there for like month I think) and it can be clearly seen that these people are just testing groups. What amazes me is that people are getting dumb with Strategus and they don't even see how they become worse and worse each moment.

Accusing people in cheating just because you WANT to believe that others are cheating is a good sign that you should change something in your brain (at least grow it if you don't have it). I got manually banned for using the autoblock hack (at least some admins thought so) by the mistake ages ago just because I was on my alt. After that I got checked by cmp and he unbanned me but people who vouched for banning my alt kept believing that I'm actually an autoblock user. Like if all autoblock users let admins duel him on EU_3 one by one without saying anything. That's just one of those examples in crpg how people can be fooled by something they want to believe in. Mostly it's just because it's way harder to believe in that someone is better than in that he's cheating.

Stop taking this Strat too serious and quit these dogfights. When you start hating your enemies - you can't win because your enemy is stuck in your head and you have to beat your head in the end.

[CrazyCracka420]

Well Dave, Harald's opinion is wrong.  It's a lot more than "The same as if someone took a screenshot and sent it to you", because that bit requires a tiny bit of communication.  The whole point of strategus is that multiple people do things combined to create something for the larger good (of the faction, bandit force, or two buddies, etc). 

If one person was able to gather that much information without ever speaking to anyone, it would be a huge advantage.

You would then effectively only need 1 person active in strategus at any given time (like overnight) if an enemy starts marching you can just give your faction member a call and tell them to "move their guy" or attack, or whatever.

I think this is a pretty large issue (not as bad as multi-accounting) and would be awesome if people stopped using to gain an unfair advantage.