Author Topic: If you could change the way strategus battles work...  (Read 4485 times)

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Offline Arathian

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Re: If you could change the way strategus battles work...
« Reply #45 on: November 20, 2012, 02:21:17 am »
0
Two free-floating commanders who are pretty much in spect mode, they assign their troops to different groups and set flags like go-to/assault here/defend this for them. Basically RTS game for two people, TPP for the rest. Link it with XP/gold for being near your group-flag like it was in the ancient times in cRPG battles.

(click to show/hide)

That would be pretty cool. A natural selection style mode in strategus.

Yeah, I would approve of that.
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Offline Farrix

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Re: If you could change the way strategus battles work...
« Reply #46 on: November 20, 2012, 05:34:37 am »
+3
I think a significant problem is the differences between how we interact with cRPG and Strat. Elindor referenced strat skills, and I think that could play a huge role so I will describe my thoughts in reference to this.

Right now in strategus battles, if you are level 30, you will be hired over a level 20 guy no matter what. In the application for a battle we can provide our cRPG stats, but they really are pretty insignificant in the decision making process for who is gonna get hired. Replacing these cRPG stats in the application with Strat stats, or just having them both available would be pretty simple.

The strat character is base-lined off of the cRPG character, so there are a few things that would need to be addressed if we wanted to actually customize our strategus characters. These include: Character level, and Generations.
 
One of the developers earlier in this thread mentioned something about returning to single player mindset. Well I agree with that. If we added skills from single player such as trainer, leadership, etc., (more detail on these later) they would need to be formatted and dispersed according to cRPG character level. There are 15 skills in single player that play no role at all in cRPG. So lets say a character gets a strat point for every level they gain in cRPG. So if you are lvl 34, then you could have invested 34 points into trade and nothing else. (I'll describe what each of these 15 diff skills could do in a spoiler here in a bit.). No caps on how high an individual can invest into skills, which would keep us from having to mess with intelligence/charisma (a mitigating factor will be described later).

Now of these 15 possible skills, a Gen One character should be limited to investing in only 3 skills at a time. A gen two being able to invest in up to four, gen three in 5, etc... This would be so that there would be an incentive to retire and would provide a further purpose to the generations mechanic.

These 15 skills would be divided according to the two arenas of strategus. Lets say six of the skills benefit an individual or clan during a strategus battle, and 9 of the skills benefit the individual/clan on the strategus map. If you just wanted to sit in a fief and farm troops, and play in strategus battles then you could focus on battle skills. If you wanted to be more proactive in strat and move around/trade then you could invest in map skills. With either arena, every single one of these skills would have to be applied to the game in a mathematical fashion so that each would have diminishing returns. Each skill would require an equation that will effect game balance and accordingly is very significant. For instance at level one trade skill I could get an extra 10% bonus for my goods. Level 30 trade skill would only get me an extra .2% percent (the numbers can be tweaked later, focus on the general idea.).

Now this setup could lead to some abuses pretty easily, most notably within the battle skill sets. These abuses are obvious and the fix simple, but the potential map skill set abuses would require some of the more innovative criminal minds out there to figure out. Now if there were no limitations then a clan could have all their members invest into a healing skill (first aid, surgery) and no one would die in a battle because they would be surrounded by medics (further described in spoiler below). I think the best fix for this would be as follows: Every battle already has a limit in the amount of mercenaries one can hire which is determined according to army sizes. Lets use this same number to set a limit on the amount of skill can be used in an individual battle. For example: If I could hire 35 mercs for my battle, and I want an engineer. I would have the option of hiring either one guy at lvl 20 engineer skill and an assistant at lvl 15 engi skill, I could hire 5 guys at level 7 skill, or I could find one guy completely invested in engi skill at 35. Point of the story being: of all my mercs, I could only hire a limited # whose engineering skill would actually apply. This would make the game a lot more engaging because the leaders before a battle would have to make hiring decisions according to the statistics they have available, not based strictly on the character's level. For instance, a level 20 guy with 20 points into first aid is probably going to be hired before someone invested solely in map skill sets even if he is level 30. It gives the newbs another method of greater involvement.

So you can hire 35 mercs. You've got one 20 skill engi hired and only one other guy with engi skill who applied for the battle. He also has 20 engi skill. One of these two mercs is going to have some of their skill reduced in order to participate. Not reduced in reality, just in that particular battle. In this situation, the leader(s) of the battle would have to decide who they thought would be a better engi and hire that guy at full skill, the other at reduced. Point being that the leader decides who to hire, which skills to emphasize, how to use those skills in battle, and how to distribute the available skill points within their mercs. IMO this makes the hiring process a lot more intricate and interesting. If a character wants to put everything they have into one skill, they can. They just gotta keep in mind, it may be better for a battle if there were several players with a small amount of that skill, rather than one player with a shit ton of it.

Ok, so here are the skills in detail which I would propose implementing.
(click to show/hide)

Well there is my essay, I hope you found it interesting and read the thing. chadz if you actually read the whole thing and found it to be engaging, or even happened to like some of the ideas, please inflate my ego and make it publicly known!

Offline Mannhammer

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Re: If you could change the way strategus battles work...
« Reply #47 on: November 20, 2012, 07:28:18 am »
+7
In chadz OP he asked how would you do Strat from scratch. It's a good question. Considering we have been beta testing this game for years I thought about what works, what doesn't. This is a simple summary of my thoughts on the subject. I can go into a lot more detail on these thoughts if anyone is interested.

1. Make Strat a turn based game.
(click to show/hide)

2. Break-up the Strat map into small regions with defined boarders. Each region consists of a village, castle, town or something else.

3. All Strat players play on the same map

4. Delineate time regions on the Strat map that correlate to real life time zones. (IE. Longitudinal lines) Battles fought in these areas automatically start building off of that regions RL prime time(7PM, 8PM, ect...).

5. Get away from micromanagement.
(click to show/hide)

Lastly we need to define what type of game Strat will be. Is Strat a persistent world MMOSG(Massively Multiplayer Online Strategy Game) that has no defined end point? Or is it a strategy game like risk or chess that has a clear victor and end? Answering these questions is crucial for determining the mechanics of any game.

« Last Edit: November 20, 2012, 08:06:42 am by Mannhammer »
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Offline buba

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Re: If you could change the way strategus battles work...
« Reply #48 on: November 20, 2012, 02:15:39 pm »
0
Good idea's Mannhammer.
I am not sure about the turn based idea but its a new and original.
The last question you asked about what kind of game strat is going to be, like risk, or mmosg is vital. 

Offline Firebrand

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Re: If you could change the way strategus battles work...
« Reply #49 on: November 20, 2012, 02:24:20 pm »
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Farrix +1 Nice idea, i would support this kind of gameplay! We should bring more RPG elements! Near to singleplayer! :)
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Offline _RXN_

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Re: If you could change the way strategus battles work...
« Reply #50 on: November 20, 2012, 03:01:39 pm »
+1
Make a limited number of tickets on the map for the entire round. Make the restoring of tickets to be very slow. IRL model.

Offline Warham

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Re: If you could change the way strategus battles work...
« Reply #51 on: November 20, 2012, 03:11:43 pm »
+4
Remove the strategus map part completely because its garbage no matter how much you add or rework it.  It's an unfun buggy facebook game that no one actually enjoys, with a time-consuming awkward interface, random esoteric mechanics that no one understands except exploiters, and it requires 90000 minutes of bullshit drama/micromanagement of pixels every week or two for 90 minutes of "fun" battles.
Strat without map is nothing. So this is the worst idea I've ever heard about strategus. Just play on eu1 or eu2 and do not bother about strat.


5.  Double the xp gain

For example: Strat players would recruit peasants, then could train them to higher levels. Say Foot man, soldier, knight ect... Players from the cRPG page would create gear load outs for each troop level(peasant, footman, soldier knight ect..) for their character. Each troop level would have a cap on gold that could be spent. When a strat battle occurs players select the troop level they will spawn as, from the available troop types, then they spawn with the equipment they set on the cRPG page.

Make a limited number of tickets on the map for the entire round. Make the restoring of tickets to be very slow. IRL model.

Realy good suggestions.

And make something with it:
Current battle & loot system prevents dynamic warfare. Even within 4 months you couldn't do much.
For example current Tshibtin situation: UIF & Anti-UIF have about 10k troops each. UIF could attack the village only with 1.5k max(constant charge, little tactics) due to battle timer. & Anti-UIF need to have 2-2.5k troops in the village to always win & to get shitload of loot. So all we could do is to send 1.5k armies one by one, until one side will finally run out of tickets(which is hard since every side have more than one hundred active recruiters).
Same goes for Anti-UIF. They can't counterattack our armies in the field, cause we could reinforce our 1.5k armies to unbeatable 2.5k amount & get a lot of loot after battle.
Thats why Strat is boring as hell right now on EU.

P.S. same shit was at the beginning of the Strat 4 when Coalition, Crusader alliance, Peacebrakers, Caravand Guard & others brought about 10k troops to the DRZ desert. They besieged Jameyed castle, lost a loot of troops, saw UIF reinforcements(who could prevent any fief capture) & retreated to homeland. Because they couldn't take any fief without loosing almost all their army.
This is the most important problem for strategus now.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2012, 03:16:31 pm by Warham »
Sorry for my english, i am russian-speaking.

Offline Elindor

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Re: If you could change the way strategus battles work...
« Reply #52 on: November 20, 2012, 03:56:47 pm »
+1

2. Break-up the Strat map into small regions with defined boarders. Each region consists of a village, castle, town or something else.


Ohhhh....like continents in RISK.

@ chadz, if we went to defined time periods for Strat like you mentioned (campaigns), this would be a great model to use....(Im assuming you know how RISK works).

Owning a region could confer certain bonuses, and count towards victory points in a defined campaign.
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Offline [ptx]

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Re: If you could change the way strategus battles work...
« Reply #53 on: November 20, 2012, 04:02:20 pm »
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Oh gosh, there was a discussion about this on IRC a while back, i promised to sum it up in a thread >_<
Will do that later today, if i don't forget again :(

Offline KaMiKaZe_JoE

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Re: If you could change the way strategus battles work...
« Reply #54 on: November 20, 2012, 07:11:44 pm »
0
*See "3." and "4." for a direct response to "what do with battles?".
**I see all of the battles as opportunities for groups of players to get together to attempt to out-think and out-play each other, with certain things being at stake as a form of incentive (equipment, fiefs, troops, prestige, etc.).

1. Keep the sieges and village fights basically the way they are. The defenders and attackers have to fight dynamically (usually) over a given objective(s), and these objectives are usually player generated (which requires creative thinking). Thus, a section of wall is an objective not because God Says So, but because there's a legitimate tactical advantage to be had. Maybe add new features like, as someone else suggested, a battering ram for siege, and tweak some of the town/castle/fief maps a little. Otherwise, it's good brah.

Quoted for Truth:
Quote
Siege gives you a basic objective and frees up the stress from a single life, kiting and cav, and keeps up a sustained level of intensity that is very fun to play for short gaming sessions.  This is why "bads" go on siege:  casual type players, who this mod honestly drive away in flocks, probably like this kind of gaming much better instead of the counter-strike ONE LIFE MAD CAV OPEN FIELDS GOOD LUCK BRO mode.  But Siege is full of shit maps, cav can't do anything, it just feels half assed.

2. Field battles really are just big fucking TDM grindfests, the winner of which is determined by a) number of troops and b) equipment quality. There's not enough tactical thinking or creativity.

Don't get me wrong, I like being able to fight a lot, and spawn a lot, and kill a lot of shit. I like the epicness of large, 1000+ armies clashing. I like long battles, with lots of screaming on Teamspeak and rage.

The problem is that tactical thinking doesn't play enough of a role in field battles. Field battles should offer an opportunity for players to come together and try to out maneuver and out think each other on a tactical scale. Unlike sieges, I think field battles should emphasize maneuverability and interaction between different player classes.

3. Spawn in waves in field battles, but don't do this for sieges, and don't make players wait long to fight. I'm thinking, like, 2:00 minutes here. And don't make the destruction of a single wave the "end of the game" for a given side. Right now formations and movement don't matter so much because there's a constant, steady stream of troops feeding into each team's blob/gaggle-fuck. Make the well-being of each side's blob/gaggle fuck more important.

4. Tweak how the classes work a little bit so that fighting in a group is even more advantageous than fighting solo. Please, though, for the love of god don't add random, magical, stupid bonuses that don't make sense. The shieldwall bonus is ok, because that's reasonable, but archer shooting speed bonus or damage bonus for being in a group isn't. This isn't WoW, where people get magica buffs.
- Buff polearm/shield class
- Add a (small) percent chance that a horse will NOT rear if struck with a polearm. One of the things that makes cavalry charges retarded is the horse rearing mechanic, whereby a horse, and every single fucking horse behind it will come to a dead stop if somebody wiggles a pointy thing in its face. This makes what should be an awesome heavy cavalry charge useless and turns it into a fucking traffic jam.

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Offline Perceval

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Re: If you could change the way strategus battles work...
« Reply #55 on: November 21, 2012, 12:23:13 am »
0
Not sure if I'd like to see this actually done, i'm just throwing it in the brainstorm. Remaking strat entirely from scratch:

Doing it kind of like DayZ, every player is 1 ticket and actual players form a party. No battle respawn. The map would be scaled down to a handfull of castles and villages.

Perma-death. Getting killed in a strat battle turns you back to a peasant and teleports you to EU. Let's say if you couldn't make it to a battle and your side lost, you end up as a prisoner (and maybe you can somehow surrender in battle) - ransom drama. inb4 yes, i'm a frenchie.

You get some xp over time from people in your party that are higher level than you are, like the single-player "trainer" skill, and strat battles. Marginal xp from crpg.

No "ticks". You're either part of a clan that can take over a village and get tax income from it, or a merc for one of these clans (as in putting the char you grinded on the line for gold, as opposed to current strat mercs)

Disclaimer: I've never played DayZ.

Offline ArysOakheart

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Re: If you could change the way strategus battles work...
« Reply #56 on: November 21, 2012, 04:27:23 am »
+1
After we die on Random Plains, we should be brought back in through the use of hang gliders, similar to that of the Ewoks. That way, we will always be equipped with stones (I suggest larger size stones for dropping off said hang gliders upon re-entry). Once we gather into a sizable force, we use materials strewn about the battlefield to construct a shoddy Ewok like base in the trees. From there we can build bridges connecting us to the other trees, in which we can do battle.
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Offline Oberyn

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Re: If you could change the way strategus battles work...
« Reply #57 on: November 21, 2012, 06:35:09 am »
0
If we're talking ground up remake, I say something like NW commander mode battles with bots. A system more like Warband singleplayer. Make physical presence on the map matter, allow other players to join your "army" or caravan or whatever, every player is a commander that control his own squad of troops. Different troop trees and equipment depending on location. Formations, orders and terrain matter so much more when it's bots fighting, this would turn Strat battles into more of a tactical rts than a battlemode with respawns, with players in the role of commanders. Gigantic armies in formation would be epic if only for the visual.
It would probably require many different servers and a ton of work, or only a few people would get to play battles everyday. And I'm not sure how many bots a server can handle before it starts to slow down, and lowend computers probably wouldn't be able to handle it. This is totally unworkable but meh, just throwing ideas out there.
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Offline Grumpy_Nic

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Re: If you could change the way strategus battles work...
« Reply #58 on: November 21, 2012, 07:40:38 am »
0
Making it more like singleplayer would make it more attractive for me. I've played Native Singleplayer and Prophecies of Pendor and enjoyed both.

Now at the moment the only thing that matters are combat skills. It would be great to have passive skills as well (spotting, loot, path finding... just look at the skill list in SP).

Playing somebody that is not good in battle but has other benefits like engineering or stuff like that would be very interesting for me - like a Counselor for a Warlord or something similar.

If you're rather a passive player you could join another hero and become his companyon, if you like to sit in front of strat 24/7 you could hire these people and have great bonuses depending on their skills and wealth.

In order not to overpower people that do not contribute to RL society by being worthless scum without ever looking for a job a certain number of "Action Points" could be implemented per day. Mannhammer already suggested a turn based game. The number of points could be 1 per day or 10 per day, whatever. They should however not be cumulative as this would be exploited a lot.

Basically make the SP playable as MP.

Offline kinngrimm

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Re: If you could change the way strategus battles work...
« Reply #59 on: November 21, 2012, 09:12:46 am »
+1
Get rid of this elitism in strat, always the same faces people with high K/D or high level and people who just started with strategus are left behind, because efficency rules the minds of the commanders so that only the best people get the spots in the roster ... fuck this shit

Give those who recruit inexperienced and low level players more renown or other carrots.
Or if nothing else goes work with quotas, say 10% or 20% needs to be taken from the low lvl players or players with only less renown or less strategus battles then...

I have a clan of players who want to have fun, not to be trained to be machines using other machines to be the most efficent on the assembly line. I got talked down to by other faction leader(s) to get better players on my roster with the threat that otherwise no reinforcements would come and not take certain people into the roster, wth i want to take those in which i have a personal bond to without needing to fear i would loose a war over it.

EDIT: Mannhammers and Firrix idears seem both challanging but also very appealing
« Last Edit: November 21, 2012, 09:35:39 am by kinngrimm »
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