Israeli vs. Palestinians

[BASNAK]

So just because Hamas is very bad at killing civilians makes them better than Israel? The intention of Israel is to disable a threat to them, while the goal of Hamas is to spread fear, hence why I call them terrorists. Violent acts intended to create fear or a feeling of unease: acts of terrorism. Intentions count, not the actual effectivity.

Yet have you ever asked yourself why they do it? The current generation leading Gaza, are those that were born when Israel was founded, and had to live their lives in shit and opression. Watching their homes being destroyed, living in poverty, relatives innocently killed, parents humiliated by Israeli soldiers (research shows that about 50-60% of palestinian children have seen their fathers being humiliated), and generally living a life of shit.

They've been going through so much, that these things get to you, and you start dehumanizing your enemies, especially when they act like dicks saying war exists only because of Hamas, when they are the ones cwhom clearly break truces. Im not justifying killing civilians and never will. But I do understand what makes people do these kind of actions.

And only difference between Israel and Hamas is that Israel says they're not doing it on purpose, and that Hamas doesn't mind killing civilians. (Mostly because about everyone in Israel is or was a soldier, both female and male, everyone does military duty, around age of 20)

[Overdriven]

Apart from anything it's only a few weeks till the election in Israel. When this happened in 08/09 it started a month or so before the election. The organisation my girlfriend works with largely thinks it's political posturing from the Israelis because those who take action against Palestine are often more popular in the polls. If that is true then it reduces my opinion of Israel even further.

[Christo]

Apart from anything it's only a few weeks till the election in Israel. When this happened in 08/09 it started a month or so before the election. The organisation my girlfriend works with largely thinks it's political posturing from the Israelis because those who take action against Palestine are often more popular in the polls. If that is true then it reduces my opinion of Israel even further.

Politics have no relation to morals.

Who said that again, Machiavelli? He was damn right.

[LordBerenger]

Politics have no relation to morals.

Who said that again, Machiavelli? He was damn right.

Isn't Machiavelli the guy einstein and Mussolini fapped off to every night?

[Christo]

Isn't Machiavelli the guy einstein and Mussolini fapped off to every night?

No idea, really.

I've read some of his writings and he had a very cold-hearted view of the world, although totally understandable why.

[Thomek]

The news bias thing can be discussed. But the turn to sympathy for the Palestinians have been only for the last 10-15 years.. Before that most left and right wing media in the west supported the Israelis.

In any case, look at the death counts on both sides, and try to keep a straight face while saying this is a symmetric war. It is not. One could argue that the Palestinians fight back as well as they can against the crimes of international law, and oppression committed by Israel.

You have to be blind by now to not see that Israel wants the whole Levant, and they manipulate the Palestinians to keep the terror and tensions high. The situation now for Israel is close to perfect:

* They cannot and do not want to assimilate Gaza into Israel because suddenly Palestinians would be in a democratic majority, so keeping them there is just perfect. Gaza is nothing more than a prison.
* To have them politically split in Gaza and West-bank makes their enemy weaker.
* The wall makes the moderately effective suicide bombers of the past a rare occurrence.
* The only means to fight back at this point is by primitive and inaccurate rockets, causing a very low number of casualties compared to rockets fired.

The only thing even better for Israels goal would be a peace loving government on the Palestinian side. This would remove international attention from the area, while they could keep making new settlements and expanding their Holy Land.

[Nessaj]

Not directly Palestine but still related to the Israel/USA friendship of doom:

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[Teeth]

Politics have no relation to morals.

Who said that again, Machiavelli? He was damn right.

He also says that religious fanatism, racism, chauvinism etc do not have anything to do with politics. Oh how I'd wish he was right on that part.

I've read some of his writings and he had a very cold-hearted view of the world, although totally understandable why.

If everyone was as cold hearted as Machiavelli the world would be a much better place.

[Kafein]

If everyone was as cold hearted as Machiavelli the world would be a much better place.

+1 that.


Many people think they do good when they are doing horrible things, and they keep doing that because they think it's good. The chocolate chip cookie were good people by their own definitions (please, no godwin law reference, because this is not a case). The problem is that one's view of morals can be relatively easily manipulated, or at least a part of them can be shut down in specific cases. If we could apply ethics without our emotional approach to it and keeping a sense of the value of human life, the world would clearly be a better place. Then again, morality is intrinsically emotional and subjective.



I'd personally like the Hamas to stop their terrorism, and Israel to finally start respecting the Geneva Convention and all the Human Rights they have been breaking for more than half a century now. Aka stopping colonization.

I won't try to argue who is the (more) bad guy, because that would be pointless. I only know that a lot of people both Arabs and Israeli are just eager to get a true peace and I hope they will be able to take over at least in Israel. When that happens (and I'm fairly sure it will happen some time in the future, old people always die), the conflict will most probably ease out.

[Torost]

One of the problems with "civilized" warfare is that nothing ever gets settled.

You can keep this low intensity conflict going for centuries now that you have established borders , geneva conventions , human rights etc.
Modern ideas that has merit , but also make countless generations having to go thru the same ordeal forever.
The leadership on both sides knows nothing is ever finale , and will shoulder minor casualties for "the greater cause" indefinetly.

In the past when might was right. The stronger (better economy,larger population,better technology etc..)
were able to fund an ongoing war, pay mercenaries , hire more/better troops than his less succesfull neighbour.

Then when the dust settled , you either slaughtered/displaced your enemy or assimilated them.
Either way , you made sure you would not have to fight the same war over again 20 years later.
And everyone was better off in the longterm for it.

Roles change over time.

In the past Israel was the weak part, now it is the arabs(using the palestinians as strawmen) that are weak.
What happens when the balance of power shifts the next time?

I think both sides get exactly what they want out of this neverending conflict.
Both sides leaders get to show its population "You need us".

Take it from Gary Breecher (Mark Ames) "The Warnerd" :

Most people are not rational, they are TRIBAL: "my gang yay, your gang boo!" It really is that simple. The rest is cosmetics.

this link paints a broader picture http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Israel

[Arathian]

Am I allowed to wish they both just nuke each other so we don't have to fear about a shitty war over that piece of desert every 2 years?

[Tibe]

Am I allowed to wish they both just nuke each other so we don't have to fear about a shitty war over that piece of desert every 2 years?

No, cause the people want peace, but the goverments feels that they need to keep the tension high. Also 2 nations nuking eachother would create a radiationclowd that will probably affect the entire Earth. And if the West wouldnt intervene and mind its own buisness it would be a disaster. Israel might start a genocide or the arabnations would join the side of the Palestinians and start wiping out Israelis with huge hate.

[Arathian]

No, cause the people want peace, but the goverments feels that they need to keep the tension high. Also 2 nations nuking eachother would create a radiationclowd that will probably affect the entire Earth. And if the West wouldnt intervene and mind its own buisness it would be a disaster. Israel might start a genocide or the arabnations would join the side of the Palestinians and start wiping out Israelis with huge hate.

Mate, you are too shallow.

Bombs look cool.

Bigger bombs that make mushrooms look cooler.

Ergo, we should supply both sides with a couple hundred atomic bombs and give them a free meal at Burger king for everyone one they use.

And that is the best arguement.

[Osiris]

Israel has no real moral high ground at all ^^
Anyone who studied the formation of Israel knows they had just as many terrorists as Palestine does now.

some of them 

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1945

October 31

Jewish terrorist offensive against British rule in Palestine begins, with a wave of bomb attacks on police vehicles, railway sites and Haifa oil refinery. One policeman, one soldier and two railway workers killed.

November 27

Eight British soldiers killed in bomb attack on police station Jerusalem, Palestine, in Jewish Irgun terrorist attack.

1946

July 22

Ninety people killed and forty five wounded after Jewish terrorists blow up the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, Palestine, which was home to British government and military offices. The terrorists held workers at pistol point while they planted the explosives in the basement of the hotel.

October 31

British embassy in Rome, Italy, wrecked by two bombs in suit cases left by Jewish Irgun terrorists. No casualties.

1947

July 12

Jewish Irgun terrorists kidnap and then hang two British Army sergeants. The terrorists were trying to secure the release of three Irgun members who had been sentenced to death by the British authorities in Palestine.

September 29

Jewish Irgun terrorists bomb police station in Haifa, Palestine, killing four British and four Arab policemen, as well as two Arab civilians. Forty six people injured.

December 12

Twenty Arabs, five Jews and two British soldiers killed and thirty wounded in Jewish terrorist bomb attacks on buses in Haifa and Ramleh, Palestine. British mandate to rule Palestine ends on 15 May 1948; state of Israel established.

December 29

Jewish Irgun terrorists throw grenades from passing taxi into café near the Damascus gate, Jerusalem, Palestine, killing eleven Arabs and two British policemen.

1948

April 9

Jewish Irgun terrorist group attacks Deir Yassim, Palestine, murdering two hundred and fifty four Arab women and children captured in the remains of the village.

September 17

United Nations mediator in Palestine, Swedish Count Folke Bernadotte, murdered by Jewish Stern gang extremist in Jerusalem, Palestine, who fired at point blank range through window of his official car.

can you blame the Palestinians for using the same tactics that the extremist Jews did? well that depends on whos side your on ^^

[Angantyr]

Not only was Hamas democratically elected with Israel and the 'international society' (US and protectorates) punishing the civilian Palestinian population severely for actually electing someone who would represent them properly, they are also serious in negotiating peace terms and a two-state solution, having long accepted the state of Israel despite what's reported by most media outlets (source).

Main problem with the conflict hypocrisy, propaganda and lack of moral justification on part of Israel aside is the horrendous asymmetry in casualties and in military power, with Israel having the World's 10th most powerful military according to the GFP. Take a look at the figures and death counts (Israeli-Palestinian Fatalities Since 2000). As an example the 2008 Israeli punitive expedition into Gaza led to the deaths of 1400 Palestinians, of whom 300 were children, with only three Israelis dead. This massacre is closely tied to current events as Palestine seeks observer state status in the UN which Israel seeks to hinder at all costs as it will most likely lead to Palestine making a case against it for human rights violations in the Gazan conflict.

Israel and the US have the ability to stop this conflict any day and could have done so at any time for example by living up to the Oslo accords or by keeping their side of the various peace agreements. Instead US veto power is continuously used in Israel's favour against international condemnation (despite that of the 193 member states of the United Nations, 127 - 65.8% - have recognised the State of Palestine. Their total population being over 5.2 billion people, equalling 75 percent of the world's population) blocking any hope of a fair two-state solution and instead allowing Israel to pursue the 'bantustans' strategy of stealing all the good land, water sources and splitting Palestinian communities into small seperated ghettos, completely surrounded by the occupying forces, controlling every aspect of their lives, and subjecting them to state terrorism on a daily basis.

This conflict is not just a matter of perspective; international law - Israel has broken more UN resolutions than any other country in UN history - and every single human rights organization (including Israeli like B'tselem) World wide dealing with the occupied territories have long demonstrated the one-sided cruelty of the occupation and the ongoing military campaigns against a civilian population living in what is commonly described as 'the World's largest prison'.

As Illegal settlements are encouraged daily, Israel continues to sacrifice security for expansion; the real strategic issue for Knesset.



Recommended Youtube doc: OCCUPATION 101