~Pro Cavalry Balance~

[BADPLAYER_old2]

Hey there i'm not very good with words or posting so i'm just gonna try make this a short post that has a few ideas i've been thinking about for awhile, I've played this game for about 2 years and done every class for atleast a gen but mainly cavalry so I think I have a good grasp on balance in this game, thats for you to decide though I guess.

Also this isn't just a rage post on why they need a buff vs ranged because i'm bad, I do perfectly well as cavalry now but the playstyle is in my opinion flawed as it rewards complete backstabbing and going after melee targets and not ranged unless they are completely alone.
I think this is pretty awful for a few reasons -

• The main reason people complain about cav is that they are always backstabbed by them, it's impossible to always be on the lookout using tilde or whatever you do to peep behind you, and when you aren't you will probably get lanced.
• Cavalry are pretty much the only class that can run down archers except gimmick agi builds in light armour but cav are penalized for going anywhere near ranged by them destroying their horses in a few arrows/bolts/throwing weapons. The only reason kiting archers exist is because cavalry are too scared to go near them.
• It's not very skill based, stabbing people from behind is literally 90% of what cavalry does right now and it requires no skill at all, and if you manage to hit a bad cav players horse when he goes to attack you from behind as melee the vast majority of the time it doesn't even die and he gets away safely, no other class can mess up that bad and usually live, and if he is using something like an armoured horse have fun because he can mess up a whole bunch of times and still not worry about it.

So here are my ideas on what changes could happen to fix this.


Reduce damage from all types of ranged weapons to horses by 1/2 or more
This might be controversial but I think it is needed if cavalry is to become a real counter to ranged classes, right now a cav player can pretty easily kill 1 solo ranged player, but as soon as its 2-3 or more he cannot go anywhere near them without being destroyed. Armoured horses lessen the pain but still they aren't great, I'm using a champion mamluk right now and it dies within 5-10seconds of being near more than 2archers. I feel this would also stop cavalry backstabbing ranged players so much, if you can ride against an archer head on and not have to worry about your horse being 1-2shot I feel it is alot more skill based for both parties since the archer can dodge the lance, headshot the rider ect rather than instantly dieing from being backstabbed.


Severly increase the damage melee hits do to ALL areas of a horse, making light horses get 1-2shot and heavy ones 2-3 even with no speed bonus
This change is just to punish bad cav who get hit when lancing melee players, combined with the last change I am pretty sure it would make ranged players the main target of bad cavalry while not making any difference to the good ones who don't get hit anyways which in my opinion is a great thing. It would massively cut down on complaints of archer camping/kiting if cavalry was encouraged to go after them instead of backstabbing melee.


Nerf bump damage by atleast 1/2 for every horse, maybe even more
Isn't much to say here except that right now the bump damage for some horses (mainly the armoured ones) is stupidly strong, you can get a 2:1 kdr by just bumping people with your shield up. Requires no skill so should reduced.


Remove couching completely for all thrustable lances.
Removing couching from the thrustable lances probably would of been a big deal last patch, but now there really isn't any reason to couch unless you are bad and can't time your thrusts since they do pretty much the same damage. Might as well remove couching for these lances since it's just something that makes it easier for bad players to do well at cavalry which isn't needed.


Remove the shield forcefield on horseback
I think everyone agrees this is bullshit, many times I have blocked people overheading me from behind when im blocking infront of them with an elite cavalry shield, not much else to be said.



Basically if these changes were implemented what I see happening is ~
Ranged would have to use teamwork with pikemen or hoplites ect and stick with their team to be protected from cavalry. Now if there is a group of 8 archers in an open plain, you pretty much are not getting anywhere near that without your horse dieing, after the change they would need protection from their team instead of them being their own protection from cav, this would be a pretty huge boon to cav in strategus too which isn't the easiest thing for most players.
Bad cav would have a much more unforgiving time going after melee and getting kills in general, which puts it more in line with what every other class is like when you are bad at it. 
Fighting cav especially armoured horses as melee would be more "fair" since they are much easier to bring down with just a couple hits if they make mistakes and you outplay them.

This post is terribly written, formatted and probably a ton of spelling mistakes because I Am A Noted Shitposter but yeah I hope you get my idea's and pls post thx.

p.s i'm BADPLAYER fyi noted 2nd best cavalry player in the game.

[a_bear_irl]

as infantry i'd support this, even when a rouncey stops right next to me i typically am unable to kill it before it rides off, yet i see ranged drop destriers and above with 2-3 shots frequently. ideally, cav would have to be very choosey about engaging infantry but easily pick off ranged. this would discourage kiting, keep cav from plowing through entire teams and coming out alive, and force ranged to cooperate with their team. it wouldn't even really be a cav nerf, they'd just have to kill ranged instead of late spawn infantry.

[Tears of Destiny]

I'm a little wary of how this would make those 7 riding horse crossbowmen even harder to kill. Very interesting suggestions though.

[Tydeus]

Yes, but only if chadz gives points to the melee that are defending the archers, which is something that we have severely needed anyway. Every time an archer deals damage, any melee within 6m~ should get 1/4~ of the points the archer got.

Also, slightly reduce the proximity bonus and slightly increase the kill bonus. Getting 6 kills in a round as melee only to have your team lose and you not get valour, is a bit ridiculous. This generally happens because I'm fighting alone, which is where my build excels.

[Smoothrich]

Would be a big buff to cav overall, would need nerfs besides increased damage from melee to stay balanced.

I still highly suggest that all lances become 3 slots so you can't get dismounted off a double HP heavy cav horse and begin wildly swinging around a poleaxe or steel shield + scimitar the moment you get dismounted, but need a 1 slot weapon or hoplite with your lance until you scavenge one from the ground.  This idea seems pretty popular, because most people are very frustrated by how easy of a hybrid cav lancer is.  Arbalest, Rus/Long Bows, pikemen, these guys need at least 3 slots to be effective at their primary role.  Lancer cav should have the same restriction.

I like horse's stats now so I really see no reason to change those things, but I have always agreed that ranged is too effective against cavalry.  However, heavy cav is already pretty damn tanky against them.

I think ranged armor penetration values should just be reworked in general, as horses already have high base HP, so melee have to wack away at them.  But archers and crossbows generally are all pierce damage, and high cut throwing weapons were rebalanced to basically be pierce too.  I think they do too much damage to horses AND players, and the game would be better balanced if ranged were less effective against armor in general.

[Tydeus]

Would be a big buff to cav overall, would need nerfs besides increased damage from melee to stay balanced.

I still highly suggest that all lances become 3 slots so you can't get dismounted off a double HP heavy cav horse and begin wildly swinging around a poleaxe or steel shield + scimitar the moment you get dismounted, but need a 1 slot weapon or hoplite with your lance until you scavenge one from the ground.  This idea seems pretty popular, because most people are very frustrated by how easy of a hybrid cav lancer is.  Arbalest, Rus/Long Bows, pikemen, these guys need at least 3 slots to be effective at their primary role.  Lancer cav should have the same restriction.

I like horse's stats now so I really see no reason to change those things, but I have always agreed that ranged is too effective against cavalry.  However, heavy cav is already pretty damn tanky against them.

I think ranged armor penetration values should just be reworked in general, as horses already have high base HP, so melee have to wack away at them.  But archers and crossbows generally are all pierce damage, and high cut throwing weapons were rebalanced to basically be pierce too.  I think they do too much damage to horses AND players, and the game would be better balanced if ranged were less effective against armor in general.

Hybriding in general right now, is very easy to do (unless you're trying to hybrid HA with something). Meanwhile, there is almost no benefit to specializing in one thing, especially when that specialization cuts things out like athletics for archers, so that they can focus on maximizing damage and accuracy.

[Lamk]

  Arbalest, Rus/Long Bows, pikemen, these guys need at least 3 slots to be effective at their primary role.  Lancer cav should have the same restriction.

You gotta remember that those are ranged classes and that it is easy to fire 3 arrows at the same guy while lancing 3 times the same guy is hard in a melee because there are more risks for the rider and his horse

[Smoothrich]

You gotta remember that those are ranged classes and that it is easy to fire 3 arrows at the same guy while lancing 3 times the same guy is hard in a melee because there are more risks for the rider and his horse

Lancing will be the same.  Right now its just too easy to lance until your horse dies, then start your second life as a fully powered 2hander/polearmer/1hander with a full infantry gear loadout.  Its already OP.  Cav riders should just be vulnerable longer after being dismounted, by being stuck with a 1 slot weapon or lance hoplite until they scavenge one off the ground.

I know how lancing is, I just think the viability of the lancer/melee hybrid and spawning with a full loadout is too effective.

The OP's changes would allow a cav rider to be half invincible while lancing mobs of ranged players, and then when he gets dismounted can just go back to spamming a poleaxe instantly at the archers.  Would be OP.

[Lichen]

• The main reason people complain about cav is that they are always backstabbed by them, it's impossible to always be on the lookout using tilde or whatever you do to peep behind you, and when you aren't you will probably get lanced.
• Cavalry are pretty much the only class that can run down archers except gimmick agi builds in light armour but cav are penalized for going anywhere near ranged by them destroying their horses in a few arrows/bolts/throwing weapons.
  
  
• It's not very skill based, stabbing people from behind is literally 90% of what cavalry does right now

Yep.

So here are my ideas on what changes could happen to fix this.


Reduce damage from all types of ranged weapons to horses by 1/2 or more
This might be controversial but I think it is needed if cavalry is to become a real counter to ranged classes, right now a cav player can pretty easily kill 1 solo ranged player, but as soon as its 2-3 or more he cannot go anywhere near them without being destroyed. Armoured horses lessen the pain but still they aren't great, I'm using a champion mamluk right now and it dies within 5-10seconds of being near more than 2archers. I feel this would also stop cavalry backstabbing ranged players so much, if you can ride against an archer head on and not have to worry about your horse being 1-2shot I feel it is alot more skill based for both parties since the archer can dodge the lance, headshot the rider ect rather than instantly dieing from being backstabbed.

Severly increase the damage melee hits do to ALL areas of a horse, making light horses get 1-2shot and heavy ones 2-3 even with no speed bonus
This change is just to punish bad cav who get hit when lancing melee players, combined with the last change I am pretty sure it would make ranged players the main target of bad cavalry while not making any difference to the good ones who don't get hit anyways which in my opinion is a great thing. It would massively cut down on complaints of archer camping/kiting if cavalry was encouraged to go after them instead of backstabbing melee.

Nerf bump damage by atleast 1/2 for every horse, maybe even more
Isn't much to say here except that right now the bump damage for some horses (mainly the armoured ones) is stupidly strong, you can get a 2:1 kdr by just bumping people with your shield up. Requires no skill so should reduced.

An idea I've thought might work is lower horse health BUT increase their armor to the point where many arrows glance. This would also make horses more vulnerable to melee if they have less health. Obviously for low end horses they should still be weak vs archers though.

Remove couching completely for all thrustable lances.
Removing couching from the thrustable lances probably would of been a big deal last patch, but now there really isn't any reason to couch unless you are bad and can't time your thrusts since they do pretty much the same damage. Might as well remove couching for these lances since it's just something that makes it easier for bad players to do well at cavalry which isn't needed.

Remove the shield forcefield on horseback
I think everyone agrees this is bullshit, many times I have blocked people overheading me from behind when im blocking infront of them with an elite cavalry shield, not much else to be said.

Yep.

[Rebelyell]

such a gay sugestion
soo gay
cav heaters


Severly increase the damage melee hits do to ALL areas of a horse, making light horses get 1-2shot and heavy ones 2-3 even with no speed bonus

aim for legs you blind retar.......
2200k repair for fucking 1hit kill on my ponny

why do you even upvote that crap?

ahh btw I am not cav now, at last for that gen and next 10.

[Smoothrich]

An idea I've thought might work is lower horse health BUT increase their armor to the point where many arrows glance. This would also make horses more vulnerable to melee if they have less health. Obviously for low end horses they should still be weak vs archers though.

Ya I like that idea, I've thought about that too.  The high HP is what makes it difficult for infantry to kill, but ranged just cut through HP like butter, infantry or cav, and cav is even easier with wonky speed bonuses turning every arrow into a 50+ pierce damage awlpike thrust to a horse's head.

[BADPLAYER_old2]

Lancing will be the same.  Right now its just too easy to lance until your horse dies, then start your second life as a fully powered 2hander/polearmer/1hander with a full infantry gear loadout.  Its already OP.  Cav riders should just be vulnerable longer after being dismounted, by being stuck with a 1 slot weapon or lance hoplite until they scavenge one off the ground.

I know how lancing is, I just think the viability of the lancer/melee hybrid and spawning with a full loadout is too effective.

The OP's changes would allow a cav rider to be half invincible while lancing mobs of ranged players, and then when he gets dismounted can just go back to spamming a poleaxe instantly at the archers.  Would be OP.

Well I do think horses should probably have a bigger riding requirement to if not stop people going hybrid, force hybrid cav to be 15/21, 12/24 ect instead of 24/15 which is literally just the normal str build on NA except 3less IF and 2 less WM.

I just didn't wanna put too many cav nerfs into one post haha.

[oprah_winfrey]

[Ujin]

Yes to the forcefield removal, but shield skill should matter when you're on a horse too.

Yes to the slight reduction of archer damage , because most of the time it's suicidal to try and help your team by attacking enemy archer stacks, even when you're riding a champion cataphract with 3k upkeep.

A big NO to the increased melee damage, it already does a lot if the hit is solid and especially if the legs of the horse get  hit.  What's "Bad Cavalry"? Making all cav players play in the same way is not a good idea, if someone's riding on a heavy armored horse he should be able to at least try and ride into groups of enemies and cause havoc . It's a 50/50 chance of survival even now , so keep it the way it is. The leg slashing mechanic does it's job well enough , the less spammy players who actually think before they click can kill even heavy horses fast enough.
One more point i'd like to add in my edit : if the shield forcefield is gone there will be even less need for increased melee damage to horses. No need to elaborate here , i hope.

I can understand the logic behind the couching removal from all but couch-only lances, so ok with that.

Bump damage- it's not that huge against armored enemies now anyway. I can see the frustration if a non armored horse charges you and bumps you for alot of damage, but I play as infantry a lot and i don't think i was ever really that annoyed by the bump damage, but then again i have 50ish body armor (0 IF though). I still think that heavy horses should keep their charge damage, it's one of the reasons they have a much higher upkeep and it's their purpose, plus they are much easier to dodge/dodge slash anyway,



Just my 2 cents.
People keep complaining how cav is incredibly easy and op though nowadays with the amount of pikers and hoplites (i'm talking about Eu_1 of course) it's not as easy as it may seem, a good infantry player can stack up the same or a bigger amount of kills.  And the new points system actually works too now that ranged players aim for the horses, which is perfectly normal .By the way, a thrower can 2 shot my champ cata , 1 shot if he hits the head when i ride at decent speed . =)

[a_bear_irl]

buff cav