Author Topic: ~Pro Cavalry Balance~  (Read 4920 times)

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Offline Soldier_of_God

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Re: ~Pro Cavalry Balance~
« Reply #45 on: March 02, 2013, 05:39:43 pm »
0
I cant get behind this because...

1.) horses are already 1 or 2 shot, if you have a armored horse, 3-5. considering its someone with a longsword, bec de corbin, or scimitar that likes to lolspin and kill your horse like it seems everyones doing.

2.) nerf bump? its really not that dangerous as it is right now, halving that would be gay.

3.) remove couching? blasphemy.

Honestly, if every horse were given like 50 more health, this wouldn't be a big issue. all it takes is one guy with a longspear or any 2h with stab and you're toast, or a lolmy old friend archer halfway across the map. as it is right now that is.

Offline Jack1

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Re: ~Pro Cavalry Balance~
« Reply #46 on: March 02, 2013, 06:30:31 pm »
-1
Just leave cav how it is.

Especially agents the whole nerf plated cav so they take 2-3 hits thing. You don't pay 4.5k upkeep to last one more hit then any other horse
We're all nerds here, so it doesn't really matter.

Offline Carthan

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Re: ~Pro Cavalry Balance~
« Reply #47 on: March 05, 2013, 01:02:06 am »
+1
Yes, been posted before. Rather than practicing swinging a weapon, it would be better to go 1 hander and learn a martial art that specializes in takedowns, because that's all that really matters in that sport.

Offline GOBBLINKINGREATLEADER

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Re: ~Pro Cavalry Balance~
« Reply #48 on: March 05, 2013, 01:21:30 pm »
+2
As someone who has played cavalry for 5 straight generations I feel that I am at least slightly licensed to talk about cavalry balance. I think increasing melee damage to horses would be ridiculous when it comes to horses like the Rouncey or Destrier. My horse already goes down if a 2H can pull off a single good swing or poke. It also takes roughly an absolute maximum of 4 arrows to take down my horse if we're talking about any high-level archer. My estimate of the normal amount of arrows it takes is closer to 3. It is sometimes frustrating to pay 2,000 upkeep on an item that people rant about (I.E. "OMG OP CAV U HAVE NO SKILL my old friend") but that can be countered by the enemy team having 2 attentive archers, 2 attentive pike players, or just knowing how to listen and use their tilde key.

Sure, I can get stupid KDRs like 20-1 when I try hard, but do you honestly think I could do that if two pikes worth their own salt were on the enemy team and paying attention? My chance of going 20-1 goes down HUGE HUGE HUGE HUGELY if (for say) Relit and Canary are on the other team.

As for lance cavalry... if couching was removed and horse bump damage was halved, I think lancer cav would be nigh-unplayable... at least I certainly wouldn't want to play it. The reason couches are good for lancer cav is because they are unblockable. If you remove that, then a lancer literally has only one direction in which they can attack. It's already stupidly easy to do a down block and make a lancer cav charging at you full speed look silly. That coupled with removing their other source of damage and ability to lance would just fuck the class. Cavalry already has to operate as a support class that relies on their team distract their enemies, don't make it totally impossible for lance cavalry to have any ability in 1v1 fights.

Can we all confess that maybe cavalry isn't as stupidly easy as people like to think?

also, please remove ranged cavalry from the game
« Last Edit: March 05, 2013, 01:27:01 pm by Daruvian »

Offline BADPLAYER_old2

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Re: ~Pro Cavalry Balance~
« Reply #49 on: March 10, 2013, 04:10:56 am »
+2
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Offline Zlisch_The_Butcher

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Re: ~Pro Cavalry Balance~
« Reply #50 on: March 10, 2013, 05:31:43 am »
+2
As for lance cavalry... if couching was removed and horse bump damage was halved, I think lancer cav would be nigh-unplayable... at least I certainly wouldn't want to play it. The reason couches are good for lancer cav is because they are unblockable. If you remove that, then a lancer literally has only one direction in which they can attack. It's already stupidly easy to do a down block and make a lancer cav charging at you full speed look silly. That coupled with removing their other source of damage and ability to lance would just fuck the class. Cavalry already has to operate as a support class that relies on their team distract their enemies, don't make it totally impossible for lance cavalry to have any ability in 1v1 fights.

Can we all confess that maybe cavalry isn't as stupidly easy as people like to think?
lol
If couching was removed you could still bumplance, which actually takes the slightest amount of skill unlike pressing x, missing with the lance, and then taking half of someones hp with your bump. Also, lancer cav or 1h cav is insanely easy, anyone can get a 1-1 kd without even trying with a lance or a sword and a destrier.
1H stab is the fastest, strongest and longest 1H animation. There's no reason NOT to use it in all instances. I don't know if it's OP, but it's boring. 1H used to be fun because you had a fast (left), long (right) and the most devastating attack (stab) and had to choose the best attack for each occasion.

Offline Joker86

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Re: ~Pro Cavalry Balance~
« Reply #51 on: March 10, 2013, 10:45:16 am »
0
The reason couches are good for lancer cav is because they are unblockable. If you remove that, then a lancer literally has only one direction in which they can attack. It's already stupidly easy to do a down block and make a lancer cav charging at you full speed look silly. That coupled with removing their other source of damage and ability to lance would just fuck the class.

You would be as bad as those lancers without horse, called hoplites. The only difference to those lancers without horse would be that you have a horse.

On a more serious note: if hoplites can play properly and have a positive K/D, you can, too. You still got your horse which grants you flexibility in a lot of situations, which is actually invaluable.
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline XyNox

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Re: ~Pro Cavalry Balance~
« Reply #52 on: March 10, 2013, 03:48:27 pm »
-3
IMO cav has the same problem as xbow hybrids. Just a few points into riding and some gold ( which doesnt matter anymore as we all know ) and voila, you are now cav. There are no real sacrifices that come along with cav as for example for throwers or archers.

Cav might not be able to deal with a piker and an archer simultaniously for example but at what price ? A single cav can speed through the map and will sooner or later find someone who is not aware, which then results into 1 hit backstab kill. Enemies who ARE aware can simply be avoided by superior mobility. To counter cav however you need multiple players to work together and watch each others backs, who also have to sacrifice some fighting potential by switching your favourite bec de corbin or GLA for a long stabby horse rearing support weapon for example.

Even when you kill the horse, the rider might stand up with a good amount of HP left and a completely viable shielder build. Buying a horse as it is is a straight up UPGRADE to any footsoldier without a horse. Needless to say you get a free crushthrough knockdown charge by just running people over.

And although this is all theoretical stuff, the same holds true in the field. Cav team = autowin. Especially on EU4 with low population, there is absolutely no reason to play if the enemy team is cav stacking, as one cav has simply the same killing and supporting power as 2 footsoldiers from the other team. You get completely facerolled.

Just split horse requirements into riding points for speed and "riding wpf" for manoeuvrability/acceleration. This way you have to choose between actually different cav builds:


- Much riding points, no riding wpf build:

You get the same speed as currently but heavily reduced turn rate. More planning, awareness and timing needed when approaching your target. No more last second U-turns because you saw that peasant in the corner of your eye. Preparing an attack by aligning your horse in good time is vital. Fast hit and run build.

- Minimum riding points, A ton of riding wpf build:

Can corner like a housefly but is rather slow. Good for surgical bumping or picking off enemies in group fights. Easy to handle manoeuvrability BUT at the cost of getting caught easier once the enemy is close.

- Max riding/riding wpf:

Horse handling would be equal to a high riding build you can achieve now at the cost of not having a fully maxed melee build. Very fast and manoeuvrable but more squishy.


And there you have it. Cav is now its own class that consists of more than a piece of equipment and a few skillpoints.
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Offline GOBBLINKINGREATLEADER

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Re: ~Pro Cavalry Balance~
« Reply #53 on: March 13, 2013, 11:56:22 am »
+1
Regardless of how bad I am, your suggestions suck because ranged cavalry is a thing.

Offline Smoothrich

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Re: ~Pro Cavalry Balance~
« Reply #54 on: March 13, 2013, 06:16:00 pm »
0
Regardless of how bad I am, your suggestions suck because ranged cavalry is a thing.


Most of BADPLAYER's suggestions are because he exclusively plays lance cavalry, where you play 1hand and I play 2hand cavalry now so I can see all the ways his ideas would break our classes and leave lancers pretty untouched, since he's biased.  Everyone knows that lancers are the main problem, its why the heavy lance was nerfed so much to begin with, and the other lances need more of a nerf.  Personally I wanted to see lances become 3 slots, would make people "pure cav" just based on loadouts instead of breaking builds.
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Offline CrazyCracka420

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Re: ~Pro Cavalry Balance~
« Reply #55 on: March 13, 2013, 06:42:07 pm »
0
3 slot lances is a terrible idea because it would break my 1h/shield/polearm hybrid.  I should be able to hold a shield and lance, and have a sword as a sidearm (it's easily possible for someone to carry these items).

"Lances are the main problem"...what problem is that?

It's like native, khergits (on horses) are powerful on open ground, but they suck at sieges.  Cavalry players are useful on open maps (they still have many counters and are very vulnerable if they put themselves in the wrong position, or if the enemy team is working together).  But they are pretty much useless on sieges, and that riding skill (and possibly shield/wm) is an extra 3 or 6  or 9 strength and 1 or 2 or 3 more power strike they could have in their build. 
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Offline Smoothrich

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Re: ~Pro Cavalry Balance~
« Reply #56 on: March 13, 2013, 06:46:17 pm »
-1
3 slot lances is a terrible idea because it would break my 1h/shield/polearm hybrid.  I should be able to hold a shield and lance, and have a sword as a sidearm (it's easily possible for someone to carry these items).


Tell that to xbow users who got 2 slot xbows and 1 slot bolts.  Same with rus/long bows and one slot ammo.  Lance is an even more effective hybrid with just riding skill then any of those.  Only 2 slots though.  Pikes/long spears are three slots and lances do WAY more damage and have more "power" in every round.  No internal game balance.

You could scavenge a good weapon/shield on the ground.  Or be full infantry by not spawning as lance cav.  Instead of being entitled to fully powered infantry/lancer hybrid on loadout every round giving the best of both worlds.  This is why xbows got 2 slots and people think its a good idea.
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Offline San

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Re: ~Pro Cavalry Balance~
« Reply #57 on: March 13, 2013, 07:43:24 pm »
0
It would force me to go to broad short sword as a side weapon. Not that much of a difference for me..

I agree that lance hybrid is one of the best in the game, though. There are no downsides at all.