Varyag's testimony on the current state of cRPG

[Punisher]

Yep. The wipes were nice, but the effects were always all too short-lived. I think we could really do with one more full wipe, to remove all the problems that still exist because of flaws in earlier builds that have since been fixed. Maybe some of the worst grinders would GTX, but honestly, I can't say I'd miss them any. I have no respect for people who are more attached to their level or gen count than to the game.

I think the upkeep system and the removal of gen WPF bonus solved the need of a wipe, all we need now is a set max number of heirlooms and everthing/everyone will be balanced. Mad grinders will still have 50 masterworks, giving them lots of choices and flexibility but they will only be able to use the same number of heirloomed items simultaneously as the average player (I would suggest 2-3 heirloomed items).

[Hirlok]

Relatively new player here - never played pre-patch, discovered Warband early this year and c-rpg shortly after, since the native multiplayer missed rpg elements. Have been playing a lot since (I have the freedom to dedicate a few weeks to playing an incredibly important computer game... ;-) ) - and enjoy it.

I suck and have low "skill" (i.e. slow pc, framerate often under 20, crappy internet with 250 ping on average), but Hirlok is having fun, a lot, and sometimes even doing resonably well.

An elitist 300 "pro"-gamer community ("This is SPARTA - n00bs get the fuck out... ") would only have triggered my middle finger reflex and I would have quit after a few hours.

However I do understand and share 2 aspects of the OP:

- community. There are a few people you see everyday, and some of them are great teamplayers, have style, are funny, relaxed and friendly. Some are assholes - in a stylish and obviously role-playing way, which is funny as well. And there are a lot of real, stupid, primitive idiots around - which at some times can be annoying, on those days where the whole siege server is only one griefing, teamkilling, teamwounding, headless-chicken-running-around mess - I just get out. Just natural: a bigger player base mirrors the real world. Nuff said. Sometimes you wish for a smaller, more mature mankind, sometimes you wish for a smaller, more close c-rpg community - both probably won't happen...

- more rpg elements. We will see how much of that Strategus will bring or not - but personally I share the wish of the OP to have more possibilities to make your char unique and keep it developing, maybe including "non-aggressive" skills like charisma and intelligence or even the classic rpg skills like being woodwise etc.. But frankly I have the feeling that we do not wish for a slightly changed mod, but for a game that so far does not exist... a cross-breed of Drakensang and M&B, which I would very much like to see and will patiently await over the next decades... lol

Executive summary: yeah, there are a few things that could be improved (very much agree with a max number of heirloomes - e.g. 3 masterworks max), and the ole times are always better in some way, but overall I think c-rpg is one of the best things in the gaming world and on the right path. Keep going, folks!

[okiN]

In my personal experience it's usually the casuals that play only once in awhile on weekends who quit when that happens. I mean, let's face it, the grinders will always grind. It's those who hate the grind who leave.

I mean, picture this. Over two months, you finally get to level 30 and can be competitive with everyone else. You don't intend to retire because you don't have the time, and then the devs go and delete all that hard work. If you truly hate the grind, are you really going to come back to grind some more?

Eh, under the new system I really don't think it's such a big deal. Getting to level 20 takes a couple of nights, and from there you can play just fine. Level 30 might take you a week, two weeks, even a month, but it's not like you need to get there to start having fun. It's only when you have to play that same amount of time to get to level 31 and retire that the tedious grind really kicks in.

The ones I always see protesting most loudly against wipes and threatening GTXs are multiple retirees, who insist that they've earned whatever it is they have and think their (frequently absurd) time investment should be protected forever.

[Kalam]

Eh, under the new system I really don't think it's such a big deal. Getting to level 20 takes a couple of nights, and from there you can play just fine. Level 30 might take you a week, two weeks, even a month, but it's not like you need to get there to start having fun. It's only when you have to play that same amount of time to get to level 31 and retire that the tedious grind really kicks in.

The ones I always see protesting most loudly against wipes and threatening GTXs are multiple retirees, who insist that they've earned whatever it is they have and think their (frequently absurd) time investment should be protected forever.

I'm just sharing my experiences of the people I hear on vent every day.

Here's how it goes:

the grinders make the biggest noise, and then usually end up staying.

the casuals just disappear.

[Varyag]

I had a lvl 43 (or 44, don't remember exactly) character pre-patch , cav/infantry polearm with 21 str/26 agi. I had a max heirloomed german poleaxe which at that time had 96 speed +all the bonuses and damage it has nowadays. I had 201 wpp in polearms and could stunlock people and kill them in 1-2 shots, sometimes i couldn't even see my own swinging animations, that's how ridiculously fast i was.
Oh, and also on top of that i had maxed out riding/athletics/ some iron flesh and 7 power throw with, of course , the infamous throwing lances. My character could do nearly everything and compared to the average player's character it was simply x2-x5 times superior in stats.   

Now you tell me that was absolutely fine and didn't require any fixing at all.

Sorry mate, but I think you misunderstood me. I was referring to the first beta of cRPG. I don't know how long you've been here, but in the first beta it took several months to be lvl 30, and only 1 man reached lvl 31 (Oberyn).  Everything was slow and very expensive, so you certainly had some goals to achieve. I was talking about that experience. It's a pity that most of you did not experience it, since you came after several patches.

If you'd like to know my IMHO on how to bri9ng it back, here it is:

Stick with current upkeep system, it's good, stick with current item balance and team banner balance,
BUT MAKE PROGRESS REALLY SLOW AND EXPENSIVE. So that every time you lvl up or buy something new (and expensive) it would feels like a christmas gift to you when you were 12 y.o.

See what I mean? Bring back the true progress feature into cRPG.

[okiN]

I'm just sharing my experiences of the people I hear on vent every day.

Here's how it goes:

the grinders make the biggest noise, and then usually end up staying.

the casuals just disappear.

That may have been the case back in the day, when getting to level 25 took some real effort in itself, and even after a wipe there would always be guys on level 40 by the time you got there. If there was a wipe right now, though, I think things might go differently.

I think the upkeep system and the removal of gen WPF bonus solved the need of a wipe, all we need now is a set max number of heirlooms and everthing/everyone will be balanced. Mad grinders will still have 50 masterworks, giving them lots of choices and flexibility but they will only be able to use the same number of heirloomed items simultaneously as the average player (I would suggest 2-3 heirloomed items).

I dunno, I think it'd be nice to see a level playing field again. So many people have huge stacks of heirlooms and ridiculous XP bonuses gained from essentially breaking the retirement system. After the initial, admittedly large, time investment, the payouts and retirement speeds become absurd.

Stick with current upkeep system, it's good, stick with current item balance and team banner balance,
BUT MAKE PROGRESS REALLY SLOW AND EXPENSIVE. So that every time you lvl up or buy something new (and expensive) it would feels like a christmas gift to you when you were 12 y.o.

See what I mean? Bring back the true progress feature into cRPG.

That's all very well to say, but it's exactly this kind of thing that made the mod so daunting for all the casual players back in the day, not to mention new people joining after a while. It's nice to talk about a "kid at Christmas" experience, but like Vargas mentioned it's no secret that for a lot of people it was more like being a skinny nerd surrounded by playground bullies.

[Christo]

Stick with current upkeep system, it's good, stick with current item balance and team banner balance,
BUT MAKE PROGRESS REALLY SLOW AND EXPENSIVE. So that every time you lvl up or buy something new (and expensive) it would feels like a christmas gift to you when you were 12 y.o.

See what I mean? Bring back the true progress feature into cRPG.

Haha, you just said things I couldn't express with words, because I don't know how.

+∞ To you for this.

[Varyag]

That's all very well to say, but it's exactly this kind of thing that made the mod so daunting for all the casual players back in the day, not to mention new people joining after a while. It's nice to talk about a "kid at Christmas" experience, but like Vargas mentioned it's no secret that for a lot of people it was more like being a skinny nerd surrounded by playground bullies.

Well, maybe so, but this is what all cRPGs are about. You start weak, and gradualy grow. You don't grow to max lvl in 2 days (it literally takes me 10 hours to get to lvl 25 nowadays, and this is the level where I start biting hard).

[Beauchamp]

I'm just sharing my experiences of the people I hear on vent every day.

Here's how it goes:

the grinders make the biggest noise, and then usually end up staying.

the casuals just disappear.

aye this has some point in it. still its not unsolvable issue (like reset everyone equally to lvl 25, or something similar. btw i'm not even sure we need a full wipe, the only problem are stacked generations and extensive number of looms, other than that everything is fine imo...)

[Dexxtaa]

Ok, enough about me, I shall get to the topic. What we now call the “early cRPG beta” (and what I consider the only true cRPG) attracted me in the first place with the idea that I could have a persistent character THAT IS CONSTANTLY IMPROVING AND DEVELOPING. I.e. every time you levelled up at that time, or bought new piece of equip, was like a holiday, a celebration if you wish. Huge amounts of joy, and I am very grateful to chadz for these moments! Levelling was very slow, items were very expensive, cRPG life was full of meaning.

Sniff. Took the words right out of my mouth, and the tears out of my eyes.

[Chagan_Arslan]

Sorry mate, but I think you misunderstood me. I was referring to the first beta of cRPG. I don't know how long you've been here, but in the first beta it took several months to be lvl 30, and only 1 man reached lvl 31 (Oberyn).  Everything was slow and very expensive, so you certainly had some goals to achieve. I was talking about that experience. It's a pity that most of you did not experience it, since you came after several patches.

If you'd like to know my IMHO on how to bri9ng it back, here it is:

Stick with current upkeep system, it's good, stick with current item balance and team banner balance,
BUT MAKE PROGRESS REALLY SLOW AND EXPENSIVE. So that every time you lvl up or buy something new (and expensive) it would feels like a christmas gift to you when you were 12 y.o.

See what I mean? Bring back the true progress feature into cRPG.

increase prices by 100 and decrease upkeep by 100 would make items hard to buy and they would stay at the same lvl of upkeep, thats what your talking about ?

Anyways, ive started before patch, after i got some items yeah it felt nice to finally be able to use them but that last only for a little while like half an hour ? Its a MMO mentality that you play to get something once you get it you find another target you want to get, and if you cant find anything you want you loose interest in the game... Now i dont think cRPG is meant to be this way, its there for you so you can create your character, with what ever mix of weapons/armors you want to use and enjoy the game for what it is, be it headshotting people with bow, stabbing with 2hander, lancing as a cav. If the only thing that keeps you playing is pursuit for better gear, the harder the better, i think you are losing your time.

p.s. english isnt my first language but Varyag IMHO = in my humble opinion, so "my IMHO" sounds kind of weird ;p just a friendly advice

[Kafein]

Many people talking about "the old days" seem to forgot the playerbase was massively composed of decent players with decent levels, decent equipment, that could perfectly well kill "tincans", with a little luck and skill. It wasn't some sort of "organised peasant murder" like you are describing it. Lvl 40 gen 20 people that could use armors and still be super fast were broken, but extremely rare. This issue got fixed by the removal of retirement wpf bonus (upkeep has nothing to do with that). The rest of the chars were mainly around level 30 and above, with a reasonable ratio being peasants. "Grinding" to decent levels was fast anyways. And I recall finding the peasant stage interesting and rewarding, a simple kill as a peasant could make your day. You had to be a little patient, now the grind from 1 to 20 is just a joke, by level 20 no newcomer has learned anything about cRPG. You don't have that "cosy community" feeling anymore, anyone can enter without even being noticed.

There was also much less rage, because winning or loosing didn't really matter. The supposed "huge gap" between high and low levels was way less important for grinding than now, people laughed at autololbalance because everyone wanted to have fun, grinding just needed you to play, not to be so concerned about victory. Duels at round's end were way more frequent, it was way less serious. In a sense, the prepatch game was not so much grindy, not because grinding changed your char less, but because it was way less invasive. The current eagerness of winning rounds just shows that the community is still all about grinding, but in a more serious and competitive way.

Sure, I also like this competitive game, but some other more relaxing options LIKE ENABLING REWARDS FOR DUELS AGAIN *hint* *hint*... would be appreciated.

[Astinus]

I see only hardcore grinders posting here, I think that the current system is good, apart from the heirlooms spam.

I want to plya crpg without having to threat it like a job, forcing me to over retiring or to play at least 3 hours per day to have the a chance to equal fight my opponents. I was there since first day of the mod, and yeah there was a good golden age where everything was so damn hard to gain but back then there were always people that stayed way beyond the average in stats term of a normal player and this kills any will to a relaxing play of crpg

[Banok]

I'm gona put this simply.

OP mindset is that cRPG = native + GRIND

for me cRPG = native + character customisation

grind is just a poor substitute for content, strategus = content.

@below, yeah nothing wrong with grind mindset I just think chadz is not trying to make a grinder game, crpg was never intended to be one, he kinda said this already.

[Kafein]

I'm gona put this simply.

OP mindset is that cRPG = native + GRIND

for me cRPG = native + character customisation

grind is just a poor substitute for content, strategus = content.

Everyone tries to seek it's own satisfaction form out of the game. Acheivers will set goals and try to reach them. If it's not possible, they will try to invent strange goals until they definitely quit. It may not be what you think a game is, you may argue it's like working. It's just that different people have different expectations, and I think they should all be respected.