Game/Mod Devs & morality

[Tears of Destiny]

Why is this getting downvoted?

People are reading into it deeper then they should and are bringing preconceptions.

[TurmoilTom]

Why is this getting downvoted?

Berenger told me he'd let me suck his dick if I did.

And we all know how large and succulent his member is.

[kinngrimm]

Life is short, time rushes by. Make the best out of the opportunities offered to you. You may think that moral is everything, but it wont feed your future children. It wont pay for a car, a house etc. So if you want things like that and an offer is made to you, take it. If but these things are less important, but for you things are important like freedom of choice in the developing cycle, then you can't let yourself be compromised by contracts which would give the contract giver the right over the types and forms of implementations, so that what you see fit would stand in the background.

So, long story short, indies need money, as sad as it is. Now the interesting part: where to get it from? And what is acceptable as an indie dev?

If it allows you to stay alife and perhaps get some extra money, why not aslong you keep the rights how, what and when to do it your way.

How far can you go without compromising your integrity, your morality, your honor, your commitment to the community?

this can only be answered case by case

What if you are offered a low-hanging fruit, that might have a slightly bitter taste for some, yourself included?

If your alarm clocks are ringing already before you accept a deal, get the fuck away from it.
Give someone you trust the details, then someone else who has experience in that area, compare what these 2 different person have to say about it, independently.

What about solving your problems by giving up some of your independence temporarily, allowing you to finance your own idea in the long run?

If it solves some problems, then you get a step closer to what you want! It doesn't need to exclude forever to reach the long term goal, the streets may cross again later as long you keep a look out.

Does the end justify the means?

Opportunists say yes, realists say maybe, moralists say never.

[Bjord]

Whatever you do, however you do it, just do it well. How you get the money doesn't matter, just be smooth about it. If you appeal to our dreams, we'll make yours come true.

Crowdfunding is in my opinion the ultimate way to finance a project, though.

[Thomek]

Well.. whatever gets the job done without ruining your reputation completely. (As your rep is important..)

There are two sides, what you can do without money, and what you need money for.

I have similar challenges, and have worked and is working a lot with people with similar challenges, although on a smaller scale. (Film industry, student films, music videos.)

I.ex I make crap films all the time, but I still need people who are willing to work their asses off for me, for free. And tbh I have paid my dues by working my ass off for free or very little money for others in the past. (Thank god not anymore though!)

First you gotta have people believe in you or the project. Throw some stardust in their face, and have a core group that is willing to help you with that. It helps to be charming and cool, strangely. If you are an asshole, it doesn't matter how good the films are, people will won't work for you. (Speaking again from actual in-field experience here..)

Secondly there is a problem of people. Most people that work for free are inexperienced, lazy bastards who justs wants the easy way out. People you can't trust to do it right, the first time, is a huge risk. That's why you need as few people as possible. Cut off people that can't keep deadlines, and don't be too trustful and patient with them! Well, sometimes you find great people, but these people need to feel that they are seen, and that they have an influence on the product, even if though they really don't. (But they can't know that) Basically you have to be a step before in the social game and be a good leader.

Now, money.
Sometimes, you need money, but very often it's just convenient to throw money at a problem that can be resolved without them, if you had the right people with the right skills. I.ex once I needed an expensive car for a film. In stead of renting it, I sent by worst/best hustler friend to the most expensive car shop in town, and he hustled it for free from the main salesman. Of course, a prolonged game development is something else than a short film.

To get real big money, you need real backing, and the only thing that will get you there is a brilliant idea and past accomplishments. Still though, sad but true, pure hustling probably accounts for a lot of your chances. You won't get real money from cRPG I'd think. (Let's say enough to fund a bunch of guys working for a year)

In any case, it might help a little bit. What you could do without pissing off the playerbase:

1. Sell vanity gear like crowns or whatnots.
2. Beta keys for your coming game?
3. Kickstarter?

I'm really afraid a monthly fee would kill off too large a part of the playerbase sadly. cRPG players are often on older hardware, and often come from less than rich countries. And for a MP game, you need a minimum of players.

What I would do..
I would say goodbye to girlfriends/friends/family, move to Croatia with cmp and 1 or 2 other devs, rent a huge flat that double as office, and make the fucking game. There, living costs should be comparatively low, and there would be nothing else to do, but to make the game. You will also be able to find cheaper workforce for graphical artists etc. If you can combine this idea with a kickstarter, you might be able to get quite down the road when it comes to a year of financing.

Also, think small.. I would love to play an awesome game with crap graphics  (but great music, that you can hustle for free) and buy a beta key with the promise of more.

[Segd]

That is pay2win, which is only good for the russians.

I mean http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemium
Like World of Tanks or Planetside 2. Without giving significant advantages over other players.
This is far better for me than:

I would easily pay like 30-50 euros just for a game as good as CRPG.
And on top of that id pay 10-15 euros a monthly fee.

[Smoothrich]

What I would do..
I would say goodbye to girlfriends/friends/family, move to Croatia with cmp and 1 or 2 other devs, rent a huge flat that double as office, and make the fucking game. There, living costs should be comparatively low, and there would be nothing else to do, but to make the game. You will also be able to find cheaper workforce for graphical artists etc. If you can combine this idea with a kickstarter, you might be able to get quite down the road when it comes to a year of financing.

Are you suggesting a way to design a game, or pitching to me the pilot episode of NBC's next smash hit sitcom? 

[bilwit]

Can someone tell me what his post was about? Dunno if it was because I'm reading this late at night, but I didn't get in a single word of what he actually meant 

Why is this getting downvoted?

Because it's a giant wall of text with not a lot to say (or even one cohesive point for that matter) and doesn't even belong in General Discussion. Indie and mod development has always been DIY. For indie games, they can do whatever hell they please with it as it's their game. For mods, all they can really do is accept donations as they come and for most cases the devs aren't professionals and are either doing it out of their own love for it or building a resume so it's pretty laughable to say that we should hold them to higher standards just because the nature of their mod community allows them to be more intimate. I also don't see what any of this has to do with morality. Dumb thread.

[Shemaforash]

Because it's a giant wall of text with not a lot to say (or even one cohesive point for that matter) and doesn't even belong in General Discussion. Indie and mod development has always been DIY. For indie games, they can do whatever hell they please with it as it's their game. For mods, all they can really do is accept donations as they come and for most cases the devs aren't professionals and are either doing it out of their own love for it or building a resume so it's pretty laughable to say that we should hold them to higher standards just because the nature of their mod community allows them to be more intimate. I also don't see what any of this has to do with morality. Dumb thread.

It's not his fault that the cRPG community is illiterate and can't read a text.

[Smoothrich]

real talk if you wanna make money just make a League of Legends model game filled with microtransactions, that you grind up with gold like in cRPG now or you just buy with money instead.

skip a gen (or buy looms) for 20 bucks basically, or drop a few dollars here and there for bonus currency/XP gains.  be able to "rent" heirlooms for fixed prices of currency too, pay a dollar a day (or grinded gold) for that or something.

just create a balance to cRPG now (but ten times faster and easier to gain everything because this game has a godawful grind for a lordly armor set + selection of MW weapons, or a need to exploit the market which turns many people off), and a way to skip this grinding by just paying money up front.

this will give hardcore gamers with no jobs a reason to populate the server, and keep the disposable income gaming demographic throwing money at you.

people already spend ~20 bucks for a MW item, sure they get banned for it and its not allowed but all you'd have to do if you released your own game was manage it in game and people will throw money at you.

anyone who complains about the game being "pay2win" and that they never will support you are liars, probably the same types that type angry posts about the next call of duty game being disgusting money grabs killing PC gaming while eagerly clicking refresh until it gets prereleased on Steam to throw 60 dollars at it.

with faster grinding for gear/levels and a legitimate way to spend money for items, people will quickly start accumulating all the content of the game.  that is why it would be your job to constantly add new, overpowered gear so people can throw 10 more bucks at it to stomp the servers for a week, then nerf it all into the ground so the game remains balanced.

congratulations, you are a fucking millionare.  hire me as your PR guy please

edit:  throw a bone to "competitive gamers"  and have a 5 vs 5 mode for clan scrims or something like that, with no bonuses (grind or money wise) allowed, with some neat features to support teams.  have big banners of your clan on sides of an arena, bet in game currency on the outcome, whatever.

most of this is with a cRPG type game in mind but whatever you are thinking of, this is probably the best model for an indie game to become self-sufficient in funding and a reason to constantly add content while creating a balance towards "casual" and "hardcore" gamer types.

[shazbot]

... the means change the end, and for things like video games, that means you end up with a different product. While it might further your career, for this one, I find it hard to argue that you'll end up with the same game in both situations.

Too much singular.

How about kickstarter.

Kickstarter is interesting and has it's place, but is only working in a very specific stage.

If the ends justify the means can't be answered by the community since the community has a different interest than the developer.

A very interesting statement (I'd upvote if the crappy forum would let met), however I heavily disagree. If the community has a different interest than the developer, it can never be a successful indie game. Because the developer is the extended arm of the community, and the community is the extended arm of the developer. They are a symbiosis. Both must be interested in a unique experience and also the success of the project.

Can someone tell me what his post was about? Dunno if it was because I'm reading this late at night, but I didn't get in a single word of what he actually meant 

When I had finished to read the OP, I thought "so, this guy says nothing". I read again, and yes, this is a big wall of nothingness.

If you don't see anything in it, then it might not be adressed towards you.

[shazbot]

If your alarm clocks are ringing already before you accept a deal, get the fuck away from it.

Every deal will raise alarm clocks. If it doesn't, then you shouldn't be thinking about signing a deal in the first place.

About more detailed opinion on kickstarter:

Many people think that kickstarter is the holy grail, but I think it's true to say that: A game that is successful on kickstarter, would also have success without it. Kickstarter is all about marketing. Projects fail that have great ideas but not a very good video or presentation. Also, kickstarter is all about visuals. So you have to be far into the project already to be able to make a kickstarter project a success. The way I see it, kickstarter is to cover the last third of the track, nor the first two.

[BlindGuy]

Gotta love the ppl like Momo and Kuoin who havent understood the question but have trawled thru each post downvoting it!

Thought about this as I sat on the motorway today, and while sometimes he doesn't express it perfectly, Kinngrim makes some good points. Also, I may not have the CORRECT opinions, but I DO have some experience here: I have funded myself for several years now with my own internet business, and am just joining the team of another fairly new startup, hence why I have been away from crpg for a few weeks:

1/ Get opinions that matter: sure you have a vague idea about who some of us are, but you need the opinion of a/ someone who has sweated with you over your project and understands it and b/ someone succesful in a media business. Unfortunatly most of the crpg community seem to be either students or layabouts and as such, moralising and shitposting are their forte and not real world industry experience.

2/ Take baby steps if whoever your looking at accepting funding from will allow it. Examine who they have funded recently, if anyone, and see what liberties have been allowed/removed from them.

3/ Do what it takes to get it done: This is YOUR baby. You can be morally clear of conscience whatever descision you make as long as the final product is to YOUR liking----> We cried when you changed the game, each and every time, but most of us are still here, I cannot speak for anyone else but I am not going to abandon your projects because you have decided that you need to get payed for your time.

Ultimatly, as long as you dont COMPLETELY sell your ideas and they become some paytowin stupidity out of a nice game, such as happend to BF:Heroes, WoT, NavyField etc. then you can feel completely morally free to do what you like: It is your intellectual property, only you can decide its value as only you know exactly what it has cost you so far, we can Uhm and Ahh but we have no idea a/ how long you have spent making a product for ingrates that isnt getting you anything b/ what any terms for any prospective deal look like.

So to close: Donkey must do w/e it wants, noone else has any say as noone else has any idea what sacrifices have been made/avoided, in the past and still to come.


EDIT: WHY can I not type for a few seconds without typos? Goddamn im a tard.

[IR_Kuoin]

Lol at the guy who deleted my post.

[Teeth]

Because the developer is the extended arm of the community, and the community is the extended arm of the developer. They are a symbiosis. Both must be interested in a unique experience and also the success of the project.

I think you vastly overestimate the importance of listening to and interacting with a community. Just take a look at this game, community input rarely gets responded to by developers and if it does happen it is mostly in the form of sassy remarks. The developers work very slowly and often on completely different things than the community would like them to. Yet we are all still here, because the game is that good.

A game that is successful on kickstarter, would also have success without it.

Exactly like you mention here, a truly good game can do without a community supporting it through it's babysteps. Similarly a truly good game allows developers to do some crazy immoral shit, which will all be forgotten by us simple minded gamers as soon as we get to play that amazing game.

I mean http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemium
Like World of Tanks or Planetside 2. Without giving significant advantages over other players.
This is far better for me than:

I am sure I am not the only one who greatly detests micro transactions. I would rather pay a 100 bucks at once for a really good game than constantly having this nagging in your head that you could have that one amazing weapon already if you just paid 3 bucks. Similar thing with monthly subscriptions, you feel like you have to play because you pay for a certain period of time. What I love about single payments for a game, is that after you've paid it's yours and you are free to do with what you want without having a worse experience than anyone else. Nevertheless, these micro-transactions seem like a very successful moneymaker and if a game is good I'll still play it, so developers should do what they got to do.

With that said I greatly detest any unlock system in these kind off games. Games should be worth playing only and exclusively because of their gameplay, not because you get a weapon after 20 hours. The grinding mentality that seeped into gaming everywhere in the past decade seems a bad thing to me. I would love cRPG to be without looms and levels, cause the gameplay itself is interesting enough to me.