Game/Mod Devs & morality

[BlindGuy]

Micro transactions can be good and bad. Segd seems confused.

RIOT games, who make League of Legends will take your money for a thousand things, but they are all cosmetic changes, you cannot buy the ability to win.

But World of Tanks IS a pay to win game. You cannot get the effective ammo without real money, and the best way to get an effective tank is a/ grind for months or b/ make a single instant payment: This is Pay to win.


Reguardless, Im with Teeth, like I wrote above: Most of us will play the game because its good, we don't care what you had to do or sell to get it made, if it the end result is something both Shazbot and the zerglings who play it are happy with, then thats a win.

Also, morallity is something very often husbanded by those who feel they got cheated out of something by whoever it is they are calling immorall. It has also been used to discourage original thoughts by those under the control of sects, such as Christianity and Islam have used to control information and personal freedoms because it seemed to undermine their control. So be careful, it is just as easy to limit yourself unfairly because of your morals.

[Smoothrich]

But World of Tanks IS a pay to win game. You cannot get the effective ammo without real money, and the best way to get an effective tank is a/ grind for months or b/ make a single instant payment: This is Pay to win.

Just need everything to be available with real money and in-game currency, and have a relatively fast grind time for in game currency.  Though to be fair the current rate of XP gain in cRPG is comparable to a lot of F2P titles I've played.

No advantages, just shortcuts to skip grinding (to attract casual players with no time to level) and cosmetic items for everyone.

[Leshma]

Kickstarter is interesting and has it's place, but is only working in a very specific stage.

I've been following various kickstarter projects for over last six months. It is working if you do your homework right and if you have something to show.

If your game is already finished but you still need the money (I don't care what for), just show "early alpha" content and say how you badly need money to take to another level. Release the game in six to nine months and everyone will be happy.

If you're just starting and you don't have "cool" idea for a game which will attract internet retards (see project Homestuck) then you'll need a name behind you. Frankly speaking, outside "these walls" you're not very popular developer. So it is recommended to have something to show on kickstarter.

You'll also need shit load of media coverage and you can't do that on your own. You can use us, regular forum lurkers to do that for you or you can try to contact some of folks who host popular youtube channels to present your project (I have a feeling that some of them will ask money or something in return).

Or another option which won't cost you anything aside from yours and Haralds free time. Make your own kickstarter here on site, similar to what Chris Roberts did.

Put initial pledge at 20 euro, up to 500 euro. You obviously have a lot of faith in this community, otherwise this thread wouldn't exist in the first place.

Test our allegiance!

You're always bragging how you have 3000 or more regulars playing cRPG. If one third of that number pay 20 euro that's 20000 euros which isn't much but it will serve as nice initial boost, later you can try other options. If we don't manage to gather at least 5000 euros, you really shouldn't worry about us and what we think, go somewhere else.

Also, if that game is similar to cRPG and has Strategus component you should consider legalizing multiaccounting in a specific way. If game is sold (after release) for 30 euro, individual player can buy up to 5 copies/accounts, each copy being added to his original account and each copy should cost more than previous (50, 75, 100, 150 euro). That won't make Strategus pay to win if you limit number of accounts in one clan. Will just allow people who want to play only with close friends (4-10) to have the some impact on Strategus and will get you more money. But you'll have to work on generations system a lot to make that happen (multiple characters, make something like in Guild series of games).

[Molly]

[...]
A very interesting statement (I'd upvote if the crappy forum would let met), however I heavily disagree. If the community has a different interest than the developer, it can never be a successful indie game. Because the developer is the extended arm of the community, and the community is the extended arm of the developer. They are a symbiosis. Both must be interested in a unique experience and also the success of the project.
[...]

Best example of a controversy symbiosis is right in front of you: cRPG.

There is such a wide variety of things the developers and the community disagree about... so obviously the vision of the devs is different to what the community might like/want. Still, everyone sticks with it... mostly.
The reason isn't the symbiosis - which I don't really see as one - but the fact that cRPG is unique. A unique gaming experience let's a community endure issues and problems far beyond what a "mediocre-standard" game could allow itself.

[kinngrimm]

Kaja made for the wolves a nice customized loading screen and menus. We come to an agreement and i paid him with a 2x loomed gear. It was worth it and i would do it again.

I would pay even more if i would get a customized set of light/medium/heavy armor set, consisting of Head/Body/Foot/Hand armor which would somehow represent a Wolves Theme.
I would also pay real money to you devs for that if that would then guarantee me it would be included in one of the upcoming patches. This surely would need some communication so my idears would be included for such a set, but hey i would pay for it, so there is something you could make money with ... people want something special, give it to them and let them pay, as long it doesn't touches the game mechanics and wouldn't overly hurt the eye why not
Hell i would pay upto 50 bucks out of my own pocket for such a thing, and if i would ask around in my clan possibly more.

I pay you instantly 50 bucks if you increase my lvl from 35 to 36. I only need another 125,142,319xp anyways. At least i would be over with it then and i could start playing more my alt, perhaps even then learn how to manual block ^^

I pay you 10 bucks for a free respec without xp loss. (But really i would prefer unlimeted free respecs, this also like in GW, where you can safe and load character builds. Alts wouldn't be needed anymore, Strat games would always have the needed amount of classes as people who apply just switch to what is asked of them, generations would still be needed for all the different types of loomed gear you now need for all these classes, but your XP/lvl wouldn't change by a respec, people would reach higher levels sooner, by that then the playing field gets more even, still with max lvl)

I would even pay you to get some of my own idears included into strategus, as you perhaps already know we are working on some things which you and your team can test and perhaps include later on, but if the crpg community would make a list of things we really want to have included, but you wouldn't much like them, hence the moral conflict ^^, let us pay you for some changes you would do then anyways.

But this is all mostly about, you get money and keep on going like now.
What about you get something what you want to see implemented, someone out of the community does the coding and therefor you give him a free wish about a game mechanic which then also would be implemented, at least to test it, if it would turn out to be bad for the game, you can take it out afterwards again. But that way you may get more people into the development cycle and the development cycle may get a boost. Lets bargain ^^

[Thomek]

Many people think that kickstarter is the holy grail, but I think it's true to say that: A game that is successful on kickstarter, would also have success without it. Kickstarter is all about marketing. Projects fail that have great ideas but not a very good video or presentation. Also, kickstarter is all about visuals. So you have to be far into the project already to be able to make a kickstarter project a success. The way I see it, kickstarter is to cover the last third of the track, nor the first two.

I disagree. I would rather say a games successes on kickstarter has zero correlation with the quality of the game in the end. I do agree it's all about marketing, and of course, that marketing can give a hint about how great idiots/cool guys/geniuses the makers are, and see if their idea catches on.

Of course, visuals and music are important there, but I would think they are not the most important. It's all about the spin. I'd say the only visuals you actually need are good concept art. The rest lies in a good pitch and a well-directed/shot and edited video. If you can manage to spur the curiosity and anticipation of donators, coupled with your own enthusiasm, you are most of the way there.

Also.. remember, with your loyal fans from cRPG, you have a much stronger base to start off a social media campaign than 90% of kickstarter projects.

I'm a believer chadz, just do it.

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[Firebrand]

But World of Tanks IS a pay to win game. You cannot get the effective ammo without real money, and the best way to get an effective tank is a/ grind for months or b/ make a single instant payment: This is Pay to win.

DON"T SAY SHIT!
THIS GAME NOT PAY2WIN!

I have 60% victories in WoT, i never used premium account, i didn't bought any premium shit tanks and never used gold shells. All my stat is solo-random, no platoons and no companies, only solo! So dont say to me i have to pay money to own lemmings!
 Also game is fun on low levels, so you don't have to grind for 10 lvl to enjoy game. I would say those who pay much in WoT are just shit players who can't manage to achieve victory.

[Leshma]

I pay you instantly 50 bucks if you increase my lvl from 35 to 36. I only need another 125,142,319xp anyways. At least i would be over with it then and i could start playing more my alt, perhaps even then learn how to manual block ^^

Selling XP boosters for money is prime example of pay2win.

[Smoothrich]

Selling XP boosters for money is prime example of pay2win.

People already pay real money for heirlooms for cRPG, but its a blackmarket.  People are willing to get banned or scammed just to not deal with grinding.  There is a huge demographic for this kind of thing, and almost every game with cRPG qualities (in game currency, leveling, upgrades, etc) that are full games have micro-transactions in some way.

To them, its not pay2win, its pay to support the developer's of the game and enjoy what time they can commit to gaming instead of grinding for hundreds of hours because they have too much work or school or family or something.  All the money this generates is used to fund time and effort for adding more content (items, maps, gametypes, balance patches, tournaments, whatever).

As long as its balanced and done intelligently to support both free/one-time fee players and a constant trickle of cosmetics/gold or XP boosts/renting or buying looms/whatever with relative balance you would have a cash cow.  Hell if you were legally able to add these mechanics to cRPG right now you would start generating a silly amount of money I'm sure.

[cmp]

Selling XP boosters for money is prime example of pay2win.

No. Boosting XP is one of the lightest possible forms of pay2win, unless it gives a huge bonus (which usually is not the case).
A prime example of pay2win is selling items with better stats that cannot be obtained through regular play.

[Leshma]

I still would prefer if you don't go that way and stick to skins and find some other creative ways to earn money. I don't like games with consumables.

Also if you're considering doing smaller scale crowdfunding on your own, please add credit card option. I don't have paypal account...

[Smoothrich]

if you need start up money just add micro transactions to cRPG now until Paradox Games files a lawsuit, than change your identities and flee your countries to begin work on cRPG 2:  Grind Harder with even more micro-transactions

[Bjord]

if you need start up money just add micro transactions to cRPG now until Paradox Games files a lawsuit, than change your identities and flee your countries to begin work on cRPG 2:  Grind Harder with even more micro-transactions

Good idea.

Seriously!

[Weewum]

Are you artificial intellegence?

Is such a thing even possible?

Yes it is.

[Tydeus]

I am sure I am not the only one who greatly detests micro transactions. I would rather pay a 100 bucks at once for a really good game than constantly having this nagging in your head that you could have that one amazing weapon already if you just paid 3 bucks. Similar thing with monthly subscriptions, you feel like you have to play because you pay for a certain period of time. What I love about single payments for a game, is that after you've paid it's yours and you are free to do with what you want without having a worse experience than anyone else. Nevertheless, these micro-transactions seem like a very successful moneymaker and if a game is good I'll still play it, so developers should do what they got to do.

With that said I greatly detest any unlock system in these kind off games. Games should be worth playing only and exclusively because of their gameplay, not because you get a weapon after 20 hours. The grinding mentality that seeped into gaming everywhere in the past decade seems a bad thing to me. I would love cRPG to be without looms and levels, cause the gameplay itself is interesting enough to me.

Micro transactions do not necessitate pay2win, which seems to be your belief in the top quoted paragraph here. I think Valve really hit on something that just about every gamer can get into, be they casual or hardcore, competitive or otherwise. Hats. Micro transactions for unique character aesthetic upgrades.

I find myself agreeing with you in that second paragraph on multiple levels. Look at mmorpgs for example. Most people don't enjoy the level grind, the rep grind or gold/material grinds. Yet they remain a large part of those games. After your first gen in crpg, you(almost every single person I've ever talked to about this) no longer find anything amusing about starting from level 1 and leveling to 25+ so you can start to really be effective again. So why is it still there? What experience that is pleasing to the player is keeping this in game? Seems to me that it's there simply for the sake of sticking to the constraints of the c"rpg" genre.
/rantend

Also.. remember, with your loyal fans from cRPG, you have a much stronger base to start off a social media campaign than 90% of kickstarter projects.

I'm a believer chadz, just do it.

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Not sure I agree at all with that 90% but likely better off than most. Overall I agree, do what it takes to get a kickstarter project going. If you have to delay progress on the game for a few months to get everything set-up to properly do a kickstarter project then it's worth it. Kickstarters are a much better alternative than prostitution.