Author Topic: 2h swords  (Read 11050 times)

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Offline Froto_the_Loc

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Re: 2h swords
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2012, 06:02:23 am »
+1
I don't know what to say.
Most times I wonder if I would've won the fight if i didn't get hit within the first millisecond of the animation of a longsword swing.
Or pointblanked with the stab from a Danish.
Or any or that.
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Offline Falka

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Re: 2h swords
« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2012, 07:03:16 am »
+2
meh, nub and agiwhore, he needs to boost his str, I would need only one swing to cut this pig in half   :rolleyes:
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Offline Nehvar

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Re: 2h swords
« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2012, 07:07:20 am »
+2
I've been playing 2H since I started but I have an easier time with polearms.  Couldn't tell you why.  I'd switch to polearms if I gave a damn about my KDR.
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Offline Smoothrich

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Re: 2h swords
« Reply #18 on: November 10, 2012, 08:18:08 am »
+14
people use it because its overpowered, no disadvantages at all.  Broken animations and unrealistic insane reach that outranges pretty much all but the dedicated longspears.  Human nature is to gravitate to the path of lease resistance and maximum reward. 

change all 2h sword thrusts to polearm animation and then you'd actually see some diversity in 2h.  its also fault of lazy, apathetic or incompetent devs/balance team.  When swords account for 75% or more of 2h dmg/kills, something is wrong.  For one, all unbalanced weapons probably need a weight increase of about 25-50% so they have chance to stun just about any sword or weapon in the game.

Every 2handed axe got a significant buff to damage last patch, Persian War Axes, Great Bardiche, etc all do around 50 cut damage now, I think it was across the board ~5 more damage?  That was done in fact to make 2hands more diverse and popular.  You shouldn't shit talk the devs when they are aware and just a few weeks ago addressed the issue with lots of bonus damage across the board to axes, which you conveniently forgot to mention.

Problem is most other 2handers besides the swords simply aren't very good.  They are all unbalanced, short, slow, etc.  On their own though, I think 38-41 or so cut damage that most top swords have simply isn't that powerful, when everyone is stacking armor.  NA metagame has definitely shifted heavily in favor of long pierce weapons as far as polearms are concerned, capable of doing more damage in most scenarios than 2hands can.  I feel like there are more shielders and spears than 2handers at most times as well, or at least a good balance of all melee.

2hand stab that everyone complains about gives you crippling weapon stun if you downblock it, good players take advantage of this at every opportunity.  2hand swords also do much less damage on their stabs than most polearms, so I think its balanced there.

I think instead of nerfs, more 2handers should just be added in that give more variety, something 1handers and polearms have a lot of.  That is why I recently recommended dedicated thrusting 2handers be added here:  http://forum.meleegaming.com/game-balance-discussion/new-two-handed-thrusting-swords-estoc/

Also if you play a lot of Strat battles, they really display a weakness of 2handers.  Going into more coordinated, sustained line fighting with shield walls and pikes, 2handers can be at a big disadvantage, and are vulnerable to cav and ranged if they try to flank the formation.  But getting past the pikewall and into their formation with a longsword, you can cause a quick burst of destruction that can help break the lines.  Pretty realistic I'd say :D
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Offline POOPHAMMER

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Re: 2h swords
« Reply #19 on: November 10, 2012, 08:46:00 am »
+6
even though i am terrible at melee i would rather use them than the simple sword and board easy mode

id rather die a death of being shitty in melee than hiding behind a shield
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Offline bilwit

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Re: 2h swords
« Reply #20 on: November 10, 2012, 08:53:00 am »
+1
I've been playing 2H since I started but I have an easier time with polearms.  Couldn't tell you why.  I'd switch to polearms if I gave a damn about my KDR.

I have a harder time dueling polearms than 2H as a HBS 2H user. Length makes up for any speed advantage I have and the positions look relatively similar enough that I get lost sometimes when they feint a lot.. and the darker color of the wood can blend in with ground and make it less obvious than shiney swords and then there's getting clobbed by lolspin backswings :(
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Offline Tore

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Re: 2h swords
« Reply #21 on: November 10, 2012, 10:33:48 am »
0
because i wanted to try 2h cav :D

Offline Smoothrich

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Re: 2h swords
« Reply #22 on: November 10, 2012, 10:42:12 am »
+1
I have a harder time dueling polearms than 2H as a HBS 2H user. Length makes up for any speed advantage I have and the positions look relatively similar enough that I get lost sometimes when they feint a lot.. and the darker color of the wood can blend in with ground and make it less obvious than shiney swords and then there's getting clobbed by lolspin backswings :(

I think polearms hilt slash a bit easier too.  Their animations start farther behind the player model so with proper positioning you eat the shaft end of a powerful, slow polearm like poleaxe, glaive, bardiche etc for full damage nearly instantly into the swing.  Swords tend to glance a lot more without more wind up time, and polearm animations are a lot more deceptive than 2hand without clever feinting.

And I agree its harder to keep track of a wooden shaft than a sword, especially when its the shaft doing all the damage on contact.  Leads to very early hits.
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Offline Cyber

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Re: 2h swords
« Reply #23 on: November 10, 2012, 11:13:06 am »
+5
Why does it seem like 70% of players use them?

Why does it seem like 70% of statistics is someones imagination?
« Last Edit: November 10, 2012, 11:17:22 am by Cyber »

Offline Rebelyell

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Re: 2h swords
« Reply #24 on: November 10, 2012, 11:28:38 am »
0
2h is strong but suck against multiple enemies and archers, some cav can be pain in ass aka couch
I a plaing str shielder now and i have to say then its way easier for me.
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Offline Digglez

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Re: 2h swords
« Reply #25 on: November 10, 2012, 11:35:23 am »
-1
Every 2handed axe got a significant buff to damage last patch, Persian War Axes, Great Bardiche, etc all do around 50 cut damage now, I think it was across the board ~5 more damage?  That was done in fact to make 2hands more diverse and popular.  You shouldn't shit talk the devs when they are aware and just a few weeks ago addressed the issue with lots of bonus damage across the board to axes, which you conveniently forgot to mention.

Problem is most other 2handers besides the swords simply aren't very good.  They are all unbalanced, short, slow, etc.  On their own though, I think 38-41 or so cut damage that most top swords have simply isn't that powerful, when everyone is stacking armor.  NA metagame has definitely shifted heavily in favor of long pierce weapons as far as polearms are concerned, capable of doing more damage in most scenarios than 2hands can.  I feel like there are more shielders and spears than 2handers at most times as well, or at least a good balance of all melee.

2hand stab that everyone complains about gives you crippling weapon stun if you downblock it, good players take advantage of this at every opportunity.  2hand swords also do much less damage on their stabs than most polearms, so I think its balanced there.

I think instead of nerfs, more 2handers should just be added in that give more variety, something 1handers and polearms have a lot of.  That is why I recently recommended dedicated thrusting 2handers be added here:  http://forum.meleegaming.com/game-balance-discussion/new-two-handed-thrusting-swords-estoc/

Also if you play a lot of Strat battles, they really display a weakness of 2handers.  Going into more coordinated, sustained line fighting with shield walls and pikes, 2handers can be at a big disadvantage, and are vulnerable to cav and ranged if they try to flank the formation.  But getting past the pikewall and into their formation with a longsword, you can cause a quick burst of destruction that can help break the lines.  Pretty realistic I'd say :D

I like your straw man argument that 2h is balanced in strat!  And is overused and clearly overpowered in battle.  +60 reach for stab, which you see people milking day in and day out.  ANd nerfing the thrust animation wouldnt change anything in strat, would still keep them useful for flanking and skirmishing.  I wouldnt be surprised if 2h stab accounted for more than half of all 2h sword damage.  The problem isnt the other weapons suck, its that sword thrust is clearly obviously ridiculously overpowered.

Oh ya this "CRIPPLING" weapon stun is complete bullshit, doesnt do anything to them in normal day to day play.  The short 2h swords can practically spam stabs all day now.

Yep such a great idea to add even more 2h swords abusing thrust animations! lets give them like 40pierce so they can just instagib anyone they hit in the head from 180+ distance and have 2 seconds to float it in the air and walk it into someone.

Offline Teeth

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Re: 2h swords
« Reply #26 on: November 10, 2012, 11:54:12 am »
+6
2hand stab that everyone complains about gives you crippling weapon stun if you downblock it, good players take advantage of this at every opportunity.
That crippling weapon stun of yours is very easy to avoid because it only happens to very late hitting stabs. Good 2h players never even get their stabs stunned. Besides, only fast weapons like other 2h are able to punish these things. I can rarely get it done with a MW German Poleaxe and I know exactly when it happens.

These late hitting stabs are part of the problem anyway, the stab can do damage throughout its entire animation. You can do an instahit with an up down swipe at facehug range while also being able to do retardedly late hits with a long horizontal swipe even when the sword is already retracting.

Since they changed the stab after the turn rate nerf it has been completely borked and OP. It used to be very simple. Polearm stab can hit very fast but is very short. 2h stab is a lot slower but has a lot of range. Now the 2h stab has the instastab from polearm while having ridiculous reach only augmented by it being able to hit incredibly late.

Another incredibly important point that attributes to the ease of use for 2h. Try to get a similar reach 2h and polearm and stand next to a wall or player. Your polearm swing will get stopped as soon as it scratches the object, while 2h goes through it for a bit. There is a video of it somewhere showcasing this. This is huge, not being able to swing due to friendlies around you is very common in todays clusterfucks. 2h get affected less by this which makes an enormous difference.

Not even mentioning the new 1h/2h with their hiltslash abilities of doom that have no match in a 1 vs 1.

Offline Falka

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Re: 2h swords
« Reply #27 on: November 10, 2012, 12:07:33 pm »
+3
lets give them like 40pierce so they can just instagib anyone they hit in the head from 180+ distance and have 2 seconds to float it in the air and walk it into someone.
Yea! Give me back my old Sword of Tears aka lolpike with old thrust animation and 38 pierce dmg! Do it!
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Offline Rebelyell

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Re: 2h swords
« Reply #28 on: November 10, 2012, 12:12:55 pm »
+1
Yea! Give me back my old Sword of Tears aka lolpike with old thrust animation and 38 pierce dmg! Do it!
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Offline Piok

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Re: 2h swords
« Reply #29 on: November 10, 2012, 12:14:28 pm »
0
As polearmer I dislike this patch. Increasing weapons diversity just by buffing 2h axes and longsword will increase only diversity of 2h spammers(one of most OP class).
4 directional polearmers are rare sight now a days. And hidden polearm nerf in form of suspicious bouncing even on clear hits makes me wonder if only viable poles should be by devs meaning pikers and lancers(cav).