New two-handed thrusting swords: Estoc

[Smoothrich]

           Estoc, Two-Handed Sword
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"A long sword with a sharp point but no edge, having instead a diamond cross section 'blade' suitable for thrusting with no cutting  edge, having instead a secondary attack of causing blunt trauma. It was used by European Knights for penetrating plate mail. Similar  weapons were also used in Russia where it was called a Kanzer. The Italians called this weapon 'stocco' and the English called it a  'Tuck'.

Polearms and 1handers both have several "thrust" niche weapons like espadas or spears that have limited or really weak swings, and usually  fast speed.  Thrust damage is usually in the 30's, and they are very popular since there is so much armor.  Of course if you're a Poleaxe,  you're good at everything.  But so are the current 2handed swords.

The highest pierce on a sword is the newly increased German Greatsword at 27P, with 39 cut sideswings.  Next is the Great Sword, what I  currently use, with 26P and 37 cut.

Basically the only things that make these different from their high cut sister swords is 1-2 points of damage on the thrust or swing.  Its boring and they all feel the same to use.  No fancy gentleman weapons to duel with sophistication and class like you can with espadas.

I would love to see a niche 2handed weapon added, a historical weapon called the Estoc.  It was between 115 and 150 cm in length, averaged  2 kg in weight, and could either have a cutting edge or be basically a rigid, blunt-damage dealing spike, designed primarily to penetrate  armor.  It was based on the longsword, and eventually evolved into 1handed rapiers and the like.  It was also used on horseback to replace  the lance once it was shattered, to continue thrusting into scrubs with steel.

I think this type of weapon could have two versions, bastard sword and great sword, and something in the middle.

Estoc   
27p thrust
30c/17(20?)b swing
100 spd
104 reach
1.8 weight

Kanzer (pro russian model) (give it a fur hilt or something to match Kuyaks ahah)
29p thrust
32c/19(22?)b swing
94 speed
114 reach
2 weight

Great Estoc
31p thrust
34c/23(25?)b swing (overhead swing only?)
90 speed
125 reach
2.5 weight

Estoc would basically be a cross between Longsword and an Espada/Side Sword or War Spear.  Usable on horseback or with a shield.

Kanzer fits around Two-Handed Sword/Great Sword area, no horseback or shield.  Like a Goedendag if blunted, but weaker swings and a much better thrust.

Great Estoc should be the Poleaxe of the great swords.  Similar speeds and pierce damage, Great Estoc loses lots of swing damage for 2hand thrust animation.  Poleaxe still has shield bust + horse rear.  Wanna see an Awlpike type weapon in 2hand class, this would be good for it.

Not too sure about the numbers (I like the pierce damage, not sure about swings) but you should get the idea.  Espadas get +3 to both thrust and stab instead of +2 stab +3 swing like all other weapons, that could be an idea for these swords too. I think it would be a good addition to create more diversity in 2handers.  I  imagine a model of this type of sword has been made by now, if not I'd ask some 3d talent to give it a shot.

Also, I know how people feel about 2hand stabs already, "LOL OP BULLSHIT FUCK U NOOB LOLSTABBER."  Lately though I've seen the popularity of spears, pikes, and other pokey polearms skyrocket, and more hoplites than ever before.  Hoplites get several more points of damage on their thrusts, comparable reach with the hoplite animation bonus, and have a lovely shield to stand around and poke.  1handers get a few options to have 30+ pierce damage on their thrusts as well, and have very effective animations themselves + shield.  2hand seems lacking in this regard, and would love to see something cool added to plug the gap.

Me beta-testing the Estoc in the top secret cRPG 2.0 engine:

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[Bjord]

Yes, please.

The cut damages are fine, too.

Ohohoh, if this gets added I know what to loom!

[TurmoilTom]

Sword of Damocles: Warlords mod has an Estoc model.

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[Laufknoten]

A masterwork Great Estoc would be the weapon no. 1 for 2h stab abusers. 34 pierce stab would be overkill and 37 damage is what you can still call decent cutting power. If you have the models please add them.

[Smoothrich]

A masterwork Great Estoc would be the weapon no. 1 for 2h stab abusers. 34 pierce stab would be overkill and 37 damage is what you can still call decent cutting power. If you have the models please add them.

Haha, yeah I'd expect the Great Estoc to only get 2 pierce at MW for 33 pierce, and wasn't sure if I should say one less cut damage or not.  Then I just look at the Poleaxe and sigh 

[Pentecost]

I wholeheartedly support the addition of an Estoc; I remember wanting to use one when I first started playing and was disappointed that it wasn't in the game. That said, I want to bring up two things:

1.) An Estoc is basically a giant needle. You can swing with it, but it's probably not going to kill even an unarmored target without multiple hits. If it is implemented, I feel it should definitely use the blunt values you have listed rather than the cutting ones.
2.) For balance and also for flavor, the Great Estoc could work like the Rondel in the sense that its default mode is stab only and requires you to switch positions before you can swing it. This would not apply to the normal Estoc, which is much shorter. I'm not sure how the Russian one would fit into the equation.

Also,

Hoplites get several more points of damage on their thrusts, comparable reach with the hoplite animation bonus, and have a lovely shield to stand around and poke. 1handers get a few options to have 30+ pierce damage on their thrusts as well, and have very effective animations themselves + shield.

You forgot to mention the part where hoplites get a 30% damage and speed penalty for using a spear with a shield (putting their damage below both the German and Danish), how the Battle Fork, Red Tassel, and War Spear get outstabbed by greatswords even with the animation bonus you mention, and how the one-handed stab is a situational rather than universal attack like the two-handed stab is. I think you should include these points for consideration so that the Estocs, if they are added, are added to the game in a form with parity relative to other melee weapons with similar roles.

[Smoothrich]

You forgot to mention the part where hoplites get a 30% damage and speed penalty for using a spear with a shield (putting their damage below both the German and Danish), how the Battle Fork, Red Tassel, and War Spear get outstabbed by greatswords even with the animation bonus you mention, and how the one-handed stab is a situational rather than universal attack like the two-handed stab is. I think you should include these points for consideration so that the Estocs, if they are added, are added to the game in a form with parity relative to other melee weapons with similar roles.

The hoplite penalty was reduced or completely removed when they reworked thrusts and overheads.  I think hoplites are overbuffed right now, and have been stabbed by enough high pierce polearms of all varieties to be jealous of their damage values and want something similar in the 2hand class, at the expense of swing damage.

Agreed they need to be balanced which is why I made a thread for discussion on it from different perspectives.  I know how great the 2hand animation is for stabbing, but they are so low in damage compared to similar weapons.

Also, from my brief research there were varities of Estocs, ones that were just a pure spike and others that were more general swords with sharpened edges.  There is already the Goedendag for blunt swings and pierce thrusts, but that weapon is honestly pretty bad and is primarily used for blunt sideswings anyways.  I think it depends a lot on the model chosen, what alt fire modes could be used, or what people think would work best.

I think the Kanzer would be fine as a sword similar to the Great Sword or Two-Handed Sword, just with more balanced stats.  I'd like to see that one have cut damage on sideswings personally.  Pretty sure most people's problems are with the Great Estoc, which I would like to see as an awlpike type weapon but for 2handers.  Wouldn't even care if sideswings were disabled or had horrible stats.

[Digglez]

that sword couldnt even cut stale bread, terrible stats. get real

[Smoothrich]

that sword couldnt even cut stale bread, terrible stats. get real

Did my idea just get diggled?

[Uumdi]

Estoc's are fuckin awesome.  I have no idea how accurate the suggested stats are, but +1

[Shaksie]

I endorse this, 2h stabbers needed!
I personally would undoubtedly use a Kanzer. However I think the blunt damage would have to be increased a little, current suggested value is rather weak. Yes I understand it is a stabbing weapon and in real life the damage would not be significant but still. Under 20 blunt damage is quite weak, I think the Estoc should do 19/20 and the Kanzer should do 21/22 while Great Estoc should do 25 in my opinion.

[EyeBeat]

Estock should be faster.  It should not weigh much so that it can get block stunned. 



Thrust damage should be through the roof but the swing damage should be like 20 slash.

Better idea would be to give the Estock a bonus to swing damage if used without a shield.

[Shaksie]

It is already fast and light so will get stunned. Thrust damage could be buffed but swing damage is already a little low in my opinion; it should be quite significantly higher than a spear.

[Tears of Destiny]

Can't use on horseback

[Smoothrich]

Thrust damage should be through the roof but the swing damage should be like 20 slash.

Better idea would be to give the Estock a bonus to swing damage if used without a shield.

20 cut damage is too low to work in cRPG.  1handers below 30 cut have lots of difficulty against most loomed medium armors as it is.  It would have to be blunt damage, like spears, if it was to be that low.

I endorse this, 2h stabbers needed!
I personally would undoubtedly use a Kanzer. However I think the blunt damage would have to be increased a little, current suggested value is rather weak. Yes I understand it is a stabbing weapon and in real life the damage would not be significant but still. Under 20 blunt damage is quite weak, I think the Estoc should do 19/20 and the Kanzer should do 21/22 while Great Estoc should do 25 in my opinion.

For the damage table of the Estoc weapons, I was using the War Spear as a main reference.

Compared to Kanzer:

War Spear
weapon length: 150 (comparable to 115 reach 2hander)
weight: 1.5 (-.3)
speed rating: 95 (+1)
thrust damage: 28 pierce (-1)
swing damage: 18 blunt (-1)

The War Spear's main thing is that it is a very good hoplite weapon though.  Kanzer could probably get by with some more damage if it was a blunt swing, in comparison.  Would expect it to cost several thousand more as well.

There is also the:

Goedendag
weapon length: 117 (+3)
weight: 2.5 (+.5)
speed rating: 95 (+1)
thrust damage: 22p (-7)
swing damage: 25b (+6)

I'm weighing 7 extra pierce to be very powerful in comparison to most of the other stats.  But looking at it like this, I think 2 more blunt on sideswings would still keep it internally balanced, maybe even 3 more. 

2 or 3 damage could probably be given to the other Estocs as well, but haven't looked too closely at comparisons for Great Estoc yet.  Except for the alt mode for the Poleaxe, then I don't know what the hell to say because its so OP, but I believe it will be nerfed soon.

I was very conservative in the side swing damage ratings because I expect most people to hate the idea of 2handed weapons designed mostly to stab and consider it OP off the bat, but at least the Kanzer seems pretty balanced to me, with 2 or 3 more blunt added to sideswings.

Can't use on horseback

Haha, what?  The Estoc should be usable on horseback.  It would still be one less pierce than a Long Espada, the preferred 1hand weapon for thrusting, with similar speed and reach.  The longsword in comparison is more like a Nordic Champion Sword or something.  Longsword is one of the only viable 2hand swords for cav, compared to 1hander's diversity, one of the reasons I think this is a good idea.