Shield Requirement Overhaul

[San]

Heavily influenced by comments made in the other thread: Giving shield skill a strength and agi requirement: http://forum.meleegaming.com/suggestions-corner/make-shield-skill-both-strength-and-agility-based/

I felt my reply was much more of a new suggestion.


Shield isn't restricted to agility because the threshold is so low. There are hardly any useful 6 or 7 requirement shield skill shields like there is for cav. It's restricted to how many points you are willing to spend on shield skill, with even 2 being useful for 2h/poles, and 4 being useful for shielders who use their shields in fights.

But quite frankly, shield skill itself sucks. It seems more efficient to pick another shield off the ground than heavily invest in it.

Suggestions I see only seem to limit what shields people can carry or nerf shield skill even more, since it's already a low investment to get decent shields.


If shields become usable without shield skill, I suggest that shield skill itself gets buffed

-Strength requirement on shields
-less encumbrance with higher shield skill
-10% increase in durability instead of 8 (possible 9 skill cap)
-Slight increase in shield speed bonus from shield skill.
-Shield skill requirements should be higher (~5-6 for the good shields (elite cav 5, knightly and heavy round 6), and 7 for best/very specialized like cav)
-Just like Tydeus' suggestion in the other thread: decrease heirloom level for every missing shield skill requirement, max -4 (or whatever the max broken shield is).
-Beyond -4 is unusable.
-Larger/Heavier shield have higher shield requirement and strength requirement.
-Shield skill itself is still AGI-based

This means that a 0 shield skill user would have a -4 for shield skill 4 shields. A 0 shield skill user would be able to use a +3 7 shield skill shield, but it would still be -4. A +3 shield 3 req would of course have +0 stats. This would encourage looming shields, since there really is no reason to at the moment, since it's easier to just pick another shield off the ground than have your shield withstand a few more hits.

Implications:
Shields would be usable by almost anyone.

Looming shields would bring them more utility to the average player so they can save skill points.
However, the person who actually has shield skill will be able to use the shield much more effectively, especially since shields are much less durable without the bonus.

Strength vs Agi
High agi users would be able to have very high utility from the cheaper/smaller shields. In general, the later shields will have a higher strength requirement except for specialized shields. With specialized, smaller shields, they would be able to chase archers at the cost of more gaps with a smaller shield.

High strength users would be able to barely use some of the good shields. With low shield skill, they would get crap bonus from extra durability, speed, and the shield will slow them down if they don't allocate more points (not to mention the forcefield bonus). They don't need to spend too many points in shield, especially if they have one loomed.

Balanced: Utility based on investment. If they invest fully in shield, they would be able to use good shields and maintain nice bonuses. They would only be able use shields at a mediocre level if they only have a mediocre investment.

Shield Types Missing
Medium-sized, high requirement shields are missing. We have a few nice small shields like the buckler, a few heavy/large shields like the huscarl. I feel steel shield is more specialized, so it would be nice to have a middle of the road shield with a high shield requirement and lenient strength requirement.

Who will get screwed
Only high shield skill heavy round/Huscarl/Steel shield users will get screwed. Even so, that's only with being able to equip the shield. They will find themselves moving faster and still taking a good amount of hits on the cheaper, smaller ones. They would still have a decent forcefield, but they can still be hit around the smaller shields if they aren't careful. Once they switch to a shield they can use (it will be easy to sell/trade a Masterpiece Huscarls if this suggestion passes), they might find it even better. To reiterate, they will also be able to chase archers at the cost of having to use an even smaller shield due to moving faster with higher shield skill. They also won't get ganked by groups as easily, although they will have to turn more to face each attack.

[Voice]

I love this idea. This'll stop Archers being such a goddamn menace to everyone, and instead of just nerfing the Archers, just change the shielders and make them a central role in taking down archers. A system of checks and balances for each class is a lot better than just having "the over-powered card" on a class every few months...

[Froto_the_Loc]

Everyone can use a shield, but if you invest in it, it becomes better?
This should be how it worked from the beginning!

[Kafein]

Also, fix shields so that they work the same as weapons when it comes to blocking side swings.


I hate it how you can block someone nearly behind you if you block with a weapon, but it's impossible with a shield, as the swing will magically go through the shield model.

[Digglez]

Also, fix shields so that they work the same as weapons when it comes to blocking side swings.


I hate it how you can block someone nearly behind you if you block with a weapon, but it's impossible with a shield, as the swing will magically go through the shield model.

that would involve reimplementing the forcefields..which devs wont

[San]

I didn't mention changing how force fields work since it feels like a ton more work and could have more bugs. I was thinking smaller force field would be made up for with increased movement speed.

I don't want to mess with shield weight itself because then your shield will get stunned/crushed very easily, but I still want people able to move more fluidly with higher shield skill.

[Tydeus]

Like the ideas for the most part, can't say I'm a fan of shield skill increasing speed or reducing shield weight. Those stats are what give a shield uniqueness and having shield skill dictate every little thing about shields will leave us with everyone using only two or three different shields.

[San]

Thanks for comments so far. I don't want to make shield skill OP, but desirable to dip into like riding.

I thought it already increased shield speed. That or people like Matey have really good reflexes since I am terrible with the slow shields at 5 shield skill. If not, then it really doesn't, yeah.

My idea was that shield weight would not decrease itself (so you get stunned/crushed at the same rate), but you would still be able to move a bit faster than those without as much skill and same gear.

Overall, that would really only shave off a few weight points depending on the shield, but light shielders with < 7-10 weight overall would feel the effect, since shield would have accounted for more than 1/3 of all their weight. A lot of light 1hs are better off without a shield because of the speed increase.

Without the movement increase, everyone would just choose the lighter shields like they already do, or heavy round.

[Tydeus]

Right now, I see three, maybe four types of shields (excluding bucklers). Shields maximized for speed and durability: Knightly Kite Shield; Shields maximized for speed and coverage: Elite cavalry Shield; Shields Maximized for coverage and durability: Huscarl; Finally, shields specializing in durability against archers(very high HP shields): Heavy Board Shield.

Increasing the block speed of shields will just remove the first two shield types from play. Playing with the move speed penalty is... still not appealing from a balance perspective. Sure it might be more fun, but "speed" is practically the only downside to using a shield as is. Sure, the coverage of melee swings is smaller with a shield than with a manual block but when you move faster, this becomes easier to adjust for.

[owens]

Currently shield skill is a double edged sword. You might be faster at blocking or get a bigger force field but you dont have anywhere near enough strength to move quickly on foot.



If however shield skill counters shield weight penalty  super high ath builds are at a massive advantage as they will move too damn fast. So If this is it to be implemented an str requirement is recessary.


Those with loomed shields will have to be given the option of reassigning their looms as i bet soem of those 13 shield skill maniacs will have fully loomed shields.

[Phew]

I just want shield skill to actually do something. Like increase crushthrough resistance, reduce movement speed penalty due to weight, enable shield bash instead of kick, etc.

[Tears of Destiny]

I just want shield skill to actually do something. Like increase crushthrough resistance, reduce movement speed penalty due to weight, enable shield bash instead of kick, etc.

I thought the 8% damage reduction per level was good all by itself. It basically negates an equivalent amount of power strike from the opponent, which is pretty nice.

[Angellore]

Tears - one shield skill is nothing. The most common choice - shield skill 5 or 6 is a choice between shield surviving 20 sword hits or 23. Also 3 axe hits or 3, rarely 4. If your shield receive 20 sword hits or 3 axe hits, it will be useless anyway (with 5 shield skill it will be destroyed, with 6 shield skill all you can do is to throw it away with almost no hp left).

I was thinking about similar idea long time ago, so everyone can use shield (take it as backup) and just protect themselves from arrows/bolts (so devs won't need to destroy archer class, just make their life a bit harder, letting everyone to protect themselves from arrows). Having shield even as 2h or polearm user should be the way to stay protected from archers, at least for a while (to find some cover). This would also decrease 2h/pole players moving speed (shield on back), so they would have a choice - take shield or not to, both options will have some advantages and disadvantages.

I also think, shield skill damage reduction should be limited (let's say max 4 points above shield requirements decrease damage to shield, if you use shield which require 4 shield skill with 8 shield skill, your total reduction will be 64%, but with 9 shield skill it will also be 64% - precentages can be changed of course from current 8% to something else). This way we won't have almost 100% shield damage reduction builds (which would be just bad). This will also prevent funny situation when people with 10 shield skill could take practice shield from the ground and tank with it. With shield skill limit above shield requirements, practice shield would be stronger till 4 shield skill (0 shield requirements +4 skills reduction of damage = 32% damage less).

Also, it would be great if every shield skill would decrease effective weight of a shield by ~0.5 kg (this can be tested and changed to some balanced number). So having even more shield skill will still do something good (bonus can be doubled after 4 shield skill above shield requirements). Overal shields weight could be then increased as well (to add even bigger penalty for people using heavy shields with 0 shield skill, so no shield weight reduction for them).

Yeah, I would love to see some changes here, but that would be major change for shields, so I highly doubt it will happen.

[Phew]

With the current implementation, all a 2h/pole user needs to do to kill a shielder is walk backwards and swing wildly. Between the shield skill investment requirement and the weight of the shield, shielders are at an effective 1-2 athletics disadvantage to every 2h/pole user they face. Couple that with the huge reach disadvantage, and the shielder can't even get close enough to the 2h/pole user to even attempt an attack. Who cares about shield durability when you can't even catch up with anyone to attack them?

So I'm with San.
-Let anyone pick up any shield, even if their lack of shield skill makes them suck with it
-Un-nerf archers (since if you get shot by one, it's your own damn fault for not bringing a shield)
-Make shield skill reduce the weight penalty of the shield (and grant improved crushthrough resistance while you are at it)
-Add some shields with high requirements and a better combination of attributes (speed 90-95, armor 20+, weight>7, width >32, good HP). Now we're stuck with a choice between slow and durable or fast and fragile; how about medium speed/medium durability with enough armor to stop bolts and enough weight to limit block stun? Or just some 2-slot shields that aren't so slow.

[Gristle]

I was just saying in another thread that the best way to nerf archers would be to buff their proper counter: shields. This sounds promising, but what should the strength requirement on shields be? The heaviest armors only require 16.