How to discourage no-risk playstyles?

[Sandersson Jankins]

This thread is not as much of a suggestion as it is an open-ended question. I would like to get people's input on possible ways to discourage (not eliminate) playstyles that involve little to no risk in return for moderate to high reward. Namely, ranged cavalry excluding throwing cavalry and kiting archers.

I am aware that it is a ranged player's primary task to shoot horses, especially horses belonging to HA/HX. However, I feel that the simple existence of a soft counter such as this is insufficient. The main reason for this is, to effectively counter HX/HA, class balance must be skewed in a way that is equally as frustrating and non-conducive to fun; having 30-50 percent of a team be composed of archers or dedicated crossbowmen. An HA/HX can simply refuse to be in danger of taking damage unless he or she chooses to; while still dealing respectable damage to the enemy team. I feel that this is absolutely retarded. Nothing makes people stop playing more than a foe that is literally invulnerable until he or she chooses not to be.

So, any thoughts? Feel free to minus this post if I'm nothing more than a bitching, whining bundle of sticks that needs to go archer in order to stop the bundle of sticksry known as ranged cavalry.

[Paul]

What is a "risk"? For me the lowest risk of losing a round is either going melee footman(low upkeep) or melee cav(high upkeep). As ranged horseman I might be able to survive for a while and hurt the enemy team with taking out the horses of their melee cav but I can't really deal damage to their players unless they are really retarded. Highest risk for me is going foot archer because he is made out of glass and not even close to being a cannon. Going foot xbow or (hybrid) thrower is ok. Medium risk, I can be effective there. But don't get me started on horse throwers.

[Sandersson Jankins]

edit: im gay

Oh, and by risk, I meant the risk of taking damage. An HX, HA, and often archers with very high ATH can simply refuse to run the risk of taking damage, while still being able to have a damage output themselves. Also; my experience is ONLY with the North American servers. A lower proportion of ranged infantry inhabits them, so choosing HX or HA is much more viable.

[chadz]

... an open-ended question...

3 posts? That's not that I call open-ended

[Son Of Odin]

Hmm I'll discuss about horse archery... Always when I try to play as HA it's no risk, no reward class and just end up shooting all my arrows (3 STACKS!) to some place and maybe hitting someone to the knee once. He doesn't die. His life as an adventurer ends and he joins the Guards. I wouldn't call that medium to great damage.

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I'm thinking about unlocking this thread... And letting the angered folks in.

EDIT: Wait a minute... Maybe this discussion is meant for smart people and that's why it's locked?

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Nah that can't be it

[Sandersson Jankins]

Okay, so at the risk of looking severely mentally unbalanced, let's unlock this thread. Once again, my experience lays only in NA_1.

I suppose the major problem lies in a disproportionate ratio of HA/HX on one team. Really, here's the problem. Say a newish player (because older players aren't likely to quit this mod) is one of the last people on a team. Suddenly, he is surrounded by 3-4 HX. There is literally nothing that he can do to avoid dying to this, even if he or she is an extremely intelligent and skilled player. If he is surrounded by any number of melee or unmounted ranged, he can engage them and at least ATTEMPT to emerge the victor. This is impossible when fighting even a single HA or HX that is targeting that player, much less multiple HX/HA.

Against someone of higher level and skill that is, for example, a 2h soldier, the new player can at least visualize himself eventually beating them once he levels up and gains more combat experience. Against an HX, the new player can NEVER emerge victorious unless the HA/HX decides to take damage by either being silly or stupid, or the new player is an archer or thrower. Even then, against multiple HA/HX, he or she is absolutely fucked.


Now, the main problem is that I cannot think of a single way to prevent this, besides completely eliminating HA/HX from the game, or nerfing them into oblivion so that they are unviable classes. Of course, this won't happen, nor should it. All of the classes possible in warband should be allowed, and viable. However, they should not be as "gay" (for lack of a better term) as they are.

Oh, and as an afterthought, HA/HX are inherently more likely to delay without breaking the rules. They are, after all, simply "playing their class" It frustrates everyone in the server without a multiplicator to see a 1v15 battle where the single person is a range cavalry, shooting at medium-long range until they receive an unlucky (or very fortunate from the point of view of everyone else) projectile to the dome.

[San]

All you can do is find a crossbow somewhere and hope to fend them off. Hiding with a shield will cause them to try to hit gaps in your defense.

Maybe when flag spawns on battle, a few provisional supplies may also appear?
-A few mid tier shields
-A few mid-low tier crossbows

-Maybe a few low tier melee weapons and spears, but not really needed.

This will help against HX/HA as well as the situation where the flag is in range of camping archers. Melee cav are already curtailed by not being able to raise flags while on the horse, but I suppose extra spears couldn't hurt?

It will also help some classes low on ammo like a thrower (to pick up the spear or Xbow), or a shielder whose shield is about to break and won't be able to defend the flag.

This might also mean that flags might also have to trigger on bows/xbows like they do on horses to maximize effectiveness.

[Kafein]

One man one goal one mi-ission,
One heart one soul just one solution,

Objective-based gamemodes !

[Sandersson Jankins]

One man one goal one mi-ission,
One heart one soul just one solution,

Objective-based gamemodes !

You're absolutely right. I'd +1 you five different times if it was possible. Smoothrich's big ole' write-up is basically what needs to happen. I totally forgot about that. Pretty much THE solution that we need.

[Nightingale]

Honestly, when is the last time you seen a Horse archer on NA? that could do well consistently. The most I have seen from Horse archer, is them trying desperately to hit anything.  You shouldn't even ask to nerf this already extremely over nerfed class. I am sure being shot 10 times out of 50 arrows is rather annoying, and quite rage inducing. I seen 3 Horse Archers on at the same time on NA about a month ago and I was shocked. They even managed to get kills with really good teamwork

I think when you refer to "HA/HX" I think you are talking about the Horse crossbowmen more than the Horse archers.

Horse crossbowmen... I got nothing to say about them, besides maybe burn them.

[Sandersson Jankins]

I've seen several good HAs, Murchad is often wrecking people on his HA, Rohy on his alt (but he could rape everyone in the server if he had a wooden stick), and of course, no other names come to mind at this time. Boy, do I look like a jackass.

However, I do have a proper retort! I did make it quite clear in my first post that I do not feel that these classes should be nerfed into oblivion. Well, PERSONALLY I'd be stoked to see that happen. I can't imagine playing either one of those classes; it would make me lose sleep at night knowing that I'm the source of so much frustration. However, I feel that practically, these classes should not be nerfed through stat-nerfs. I wish to decrease their numbers and the attractiveness of the class to players through means other than "nerfing"

Quick edit: I remember several times in which GK decided to pay a friendly visit to our server. I promptly stopped playing when they were on the enemy team. Enough said about that, lol.

[Malaclypse]

Rohy can really wreck as horse archer, but he's just swole as fuck pro to begin with. There are a few others that do/did pretty well at it too; I haven't seen him in awhile, but Duke of Disco ATS could be a real terror.

I personally don't have any problem with the ranged cavalry classes, my gripe lies with the way balance continues to work in this game, being based largely on banner instead of by class or stat/skill allocation. A clan that has a lot of cavalry, ranged or otherwise, wearing the same banner gets balanced together which is pretty unfun for the other side if there's not some sort of equal force to counter it. It's not very fun or balanced when all or most of the cavalry and/or ranged in a server are on one side, and I don't see why balance wasn't done based on builds or something akin to it from the start, really.

[Overdriven]

I suppose the major problem lies in a disproportionate ratio of HA/HX on one team. Really, here's the problem. Say a newish player (because older players aren't likely to quit this mod) is one of the last people on a team. Suddenly, he is surrounded by 3-4 HX. There is literally nothing that he can do to avoid dying to this, even if he or she is an extremely intelligent and skilled player. If he is surrounded by any number of melee or unmounted ranged, he can engage them and at least ATTEMPT to emerge the victor. This is impossible when fighting even a single HA or HX that is targeting that player, much less multiple HX/HA.

Against someone of higher level and skill that is, for example, a 2h soldier, the new player can at least visualize himself eventually beating them once he levels up and gains more combat experience. Against an HX, the new player can NEVER emerge victorious unless the HA/HX decides to take damage by either being silly or stupid, or the new player is an archer or thrower. Even then, against multiple HA/HX, he or she is absolutely fucked.

Oh, and as an afterthought, HA/HX are inherently more likely to delay without breaking the rules. They are, after all, simply "playing their class" It frustrates everyone in the server without a multiplicator to see a 1v15 battle where the single person is a range cavalry, shooting at medium-long range until they receive an unlucky (or very fortunate from the point of view of everyone else) projectile to the dome.

Crash course in how to avoid 1 single enemy HA/HX as polearm/2h.
1. Spin around like a maniac and never stop moving.
2. Let HA/HC waste arrows and continue this.
3. If they try to bump you, keep spinning until last moment and then slice their horse. They won't have a melee weapon if using bow, therefore any melee without shield (1h can be to short sometimes) can take down the HA with only the smallest amount of practice.
4. Kill them whilst they are on the ground.

Now 1 noob against multiple HA/HC should in no way survive. Even against multiple melee I would expect that noob to instantly die as they should. Only skilled players should stand a remote chance of surviving that and skilled players can also survive a single HA/HC. Multiple HA/HC is harder, but I have seen it done particularly if the melee player uses their horses against them e.g. manoeuvres so the enemy HA/HC end up charging each other and provide you with a free kill.

As for delaying. Well blame your ranged for not shooting the HA/HC in the first place. It is playing their class, don't like it? Well you're the one who died.

[Joker86]

Basically the topic can be closed, as the proper answer has been given: conquest game mode is needed. It would solve most class based balancing issues immediately, and the only things left to fix cRPG would be replacing the upkeep and multiplier system. cRPG never was that close to perfection like now.

[Sandersson Jankins]

Crash course in how to avoid 1 single enemy HA/HX as polearm/2h.
1. Spin around like a maniac and never stop moving.
2. Let HA/HC waste arrows and continue this.
3. If they try to bump you, keep spinning until last moment and then slice their horse. They won't have a melee weapon if using bow, therefore any melee without shield (1h can be to short sometimes) can take down the HA with only the smallest amount of practice.
4. Kill them whilst they are on the ground.

Now 1 noob against multiple HA/HC should in no way survive. Even against multiple melee I would expect that noob to instantly die as they should. Only skilled players should stand a remote chance of surviving that and skilled players can also survive a single HA/HC. Multiple HA/HC is harder, but I have seen it done particularly if the melee player uses their horses against them e.g. manoeuvres so the enemy HA/HC end up charging each other and provide you with a free kill.

As for delaying. Well blame your ranged for not shooting the HA/HC in the first place. It is playing their class, don't like it? Well you're the one who died.

I understand how to dodge ranged, and in particular, how to dodge HX/HA. This was not a thread asking how to deal with these classes. I have a problem with a class being able to do damage with absolutely no risk of being damaged themselves. You seem to be fine with that. That's cool, we have different opinions. I'd also wager that you're a ranged cavalry player yourself. Of course you'd have that opinion, ha.

Oh, and I DO agree that it is primarily the ranged classes' faults for not shooting the HA and HX first. The problem is, I find myself refusing to play ranged because I feel that it is "cheap" or "gay". When I was two generations of arbalest, you better believe that HA/HX went down quick. Ranged got extremely boring very quickly, though. No depth of combat. You can either a)shoot people or b)shoot people. See what I'm saying? There's no chambering, kicks, feints, footwork, holds, group-fighting formations, shield-walls, et cetera. I'm not saying that ranged classes take no skill. That's a shit argument. They take skill alright, it's just that they take ONE skill (Or two at best if you consider combat awareness a skill) while other classes take multiple skills.