Author Topic: How to discourage no-risk playstyles?  (Read 3925 times)

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Offline rustyspoon

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Re: How to discourage no-risk playstyles?
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2012, 09:44:31 pm »
0
I've never had much of a problem with HA/HX. Sure it can be boring when you're dead waiting for one of them to die, but that's why I usually keep a book on my desk.

The worst thing about them (and cav in general) is when there's a lot of them and to counter, your team decides to camp.

Then the other team decides to camp.

Then there's two teams hiding behind shit, shooting at each other for 3 minutes.

Then I begin to cry.  :cry:
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Offline isatis

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Re: How to discourage no-risk playstyles?
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2012, 09:46:23 pm »
+4

 Against an HX, the new player can NEVER emerge victorious unless the HA/HX decides to take damage by either being silly or stupid, or the new player is an archer or thrower. Even then, against multiple HA/HX, he or she is absolutely fucked.




I know... our team was 7... BUT we killed the HA WITHOUT goind on flag...

VICTORY
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So the new response to ranged ragers is not "get a shield", it is "learn to chamber ranged nub!"
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Offline Overdriven

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Re: How to discourage no-risk playstyles?
« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2012, 03:49:30 am »
+2

I understand how to dodge ranged, and in particular, how to dodge HX/HA. This was not a thread asking how to deal with these classes. I have a problem with a class being able to do damage with absolutely no risk of being damaged themselves. You seem to be fine with that. That's cool, we have different opinions. I'd also wager that you're a ranged cavalry player yourself. Of course you'd have that opinion, ha.

TLDR version: HA is fing high risk you pillock.

There's a lot of risk. Risk from ranged, there's a lot of it and any half decent warbow/arbalest user can hit your horse at a decent distance, particularly if they are smart and don't make themselves obvious and you're not looking to dodge. Then considering half the maps are either towns or villages with steep narrow valleys, melee hiding around a corner can wreak havoc on unsuspecting HA. Then there's probably the most annoying counter. Cav. Village maps aren't great places for large amounts of cav and it takes a manic amount of awareness as an HA to ride around, shooting horses and inf (most of the time looking sideways whilst doing this and not forward) and avoiding lancers coming from all directions. That and 1h shield cav are pretty good at taking down HA. HA shooting vs cav often requires the 'chicken' game. You can ride behind them all you like, but your damage is pretty insignificant. The best way to do any real damage to a lancer or 1h cav is to ride straight at them, then at the last moment when they are about to release their lance/take a swing with sword lowering shield you shoot, hit them, cancel their attack, cut to the side and cut off their horse so they rear and are easy game for your own cav/nearby inf. That kind of play is the highest risk you can take as HA. If you miss your shot it's the speed bonus working against you instead of for you and you'll almost always be insta killed. Same principle works against inf. To score any decent number of significant hits you need to be riding real close, shotgunning them. This requires a pretty fine judgement of their weapon length, the ability to spin and your horses manoeuvre, bearing in mind to get the kill on a full health melee you'd have to be doing this for some time and there are always those bloody annoying high agi builds who some how leap 2m forward and up through the air and take your head off in one go.

I could go on and on with different examples (just today some arsehole took me off my horse with 1 arbalest bolt to the chest, didn't even see him and he was a long way away but speed bonus meant insta-death for me...bloody good shot), but to be truly effective as HA using your bow (many HA get 1h kills *high risk*) it does require some very high risk play. On open maps you can cut this down rather a lot but the element of risk is still there. Plus there's the fact we do fuck all damage.

I'd argue that HA is one of the classes that requires the most manic awareness as well. Shooting in 3rd person has never been my thing due to the weird trajectory of the arrows and in 1st person you have to constantly draw, often shoot sideways and just as you start drawing turn to the front to keep your direction and repeat, all whilst looking out for enemies and obstacles. It's why I often cba to play my HA atm because it requires a lot of energy riding at speed and doing all these things. I'd much rather sit behind my shield on my hoplite or hide behind a tree and xbow things which are far easier. Arguably blocking and watching for cav needs awareness but not quite the same I find.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2012, 03:57:19 am by Overdriven »

Offline Sandersson Jankins

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Re: How to discourage no-risk playstyles?
« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2012, 04:03:43 am »
-2
TLDR version: HA is fing high risk you pillock.

There's a lot of risk. Risk from ranged, there's a lot of it and any half decent warbow/arbalest user can hit your horse at a decent distance, particularly if they are smart and don't make themselves obvious and you're not looking to dodge. Then considering half the maps are either towns or villages with steep narrow valleys, melee hiding around a corner can wreak havoc on unsuspecting HA. Then there's probably the most annoying counter. Cav. Village maps aren't great places for large amounts of cav and it takes a manic amount of awareness as an HA to ride around, shooting horses and inf (most of the time looking sideways whilst doing this and not forward) and avoiding lancers coming from all directions. That and 1h shield cav are pretty good at taking down HA. HA shooting vs cav often requires the 'chicken' game. You can ride behind them all you like, but your damage is pretty insignificant. The best way to do any real damage to a lancer or 1h cav is to ride straight at them, then at the last moment when they are about to release their lance/take a swing with sword lowering shield you shoot, hit them, cancel their attack, cut to the side and cut off their horse so they rear and are easy game for your own cav/nearby inf. That kind of play is the highest risk you can take as HA. If you miss your shot it's the speed bonus working against you instead of for you and you'll almost always be insta killed. Same principle works against inf. To score any decent number of significant hits you need to be riding real close, shotgunning them. This requires a pretty fine judgement of their weapon length, the ability to spin and your horses manoeuvre, bearing in mind to get the kill on a full health melee you'd have to be doing this for some time and there are always those bloody annoying high agi builds who some how leap 2m forward and up through the air and take your head off in one go.

I could go on and on with different examples (just today some arsehole took me off my horse with 1 arbalest bolt to the chest, didn't even see him and he was a long way away but speed bonus meant insta-death for me...bloody good shot), but to be truly effective as HA using your bow (many HA get 1h kills *high risk*) it does require some very high risk play. On open maps you can cut this down rather a lot but the element of risk is still there. Plus there's the fact we do fuck all damage.

I'd argue that HA is one of the classes that requires the most manic awareness as well. Shooting in 3rd person has never been my thing due to the weird trajectory of the arrows and in 1st person you have to constantly draw, often shoot sideways and just as you start drawing turn to the front to keep your direction and repeat, all whilst looking out for enemies and obstacles. It's why I often cba to play my HA atm because it requires a lot of energy riding at speed and doing all these things. I'd much rather sit behind my shield on my hoplite or hide behind a tree and xbow things which are far easier. Arguably blocking and watching for cav needs awareness but not quite the same I find.

No need for hostility and name-calling, homie. Comon now.

It's quite obvious that we play on different servers. Word on the street is that EU1 is filled with all manner of ranged; of course HA/HX or ANY mounted player is in more constant inherent danger. Please, do realize that I ONLY play in NA_1. The amount of ranged in that server is increasing, but as far as I know, is not close to the level that you folks experience. Perhaps HA/HX players in EU1 play with an extremely high-risk playstyle. I would not know, I have been in there a total of 1 time. I was told to leave when someone noticed that I had 150 ping and I got a teamwound on someone, so I left. I don't know how often you play in NA_1, my friend, but over the past week at prime-time, the rounds have been drawn out for 2-3 minutes longer than necessary because a couple ranged cavalry want to have fun at the expense of everyone without a multiplier (and everyone with a multiplier that would rather play than sit back and receive virtual gold). This is not the only problem caused by a large amount of HA/HX, but it is the most visible to all players.

I'm probably going to refrain from replying to you again. You seem to be taking this very personally, and I don't want to evoke negative emotions in someone when my intent is not to do so.
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Offline Overdriven

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Re: How to discourage no-risk playstyles?
« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2012, 04:10:16 am »
0
Meh pillock is more of a friendly insult than a insult insult where I come from :P

Unfortunately that is down to the player. I have done that in the past, but generally speaking now if I know the odds are beyond me then I'll suicide charge the enemy mostly because I know I'm not good enough to pull it off anymore. I have had the odd time where 2 of as as HA have taken down 10 of the enemy and won the round but it's rare. If the players number 3-5 I will happily take a shot at it because I have done that many times before depending on the mix of troop type in the last enemy. I know there are players that do persist though, but then they are playing their class. Even I rage at it sometimes, but tbh when you can get headshotted in the first minute and end up waiting 4-5 for the next round it's not that big of a deal. Alt+tab and browse the internet, have a book handy, any number of things.

We don't have many HC actually. I always heard that was more of an NA thing anyway. HA seems to be more EU's style.

Edit:
I'll leave it here as well because I got back from work (night shift) and should probably go to bed!

Offline Torost

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Re: How to discourage no-risk playstyles?
« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2012, 09:46:09 am »
+1
Risk? It relative.
Depends on what equipment you bring ,and how you play.
All classes try to lessen the risk.

Fragile cav stays away from pikes and pick on unaware players and stragglers.
Slow players use shields and heavy armor.
2handheroes use terrain to not be in LOS of ranged.
Ranged players avoid melee fighting

In theory all players try to minimize risk. But since it is a game people are not that serious about it..

Else we would all be Sword and board Crossbowmen with heavy armor.
And battles would look like WW1 Trenchwarfare attrition.

In a 100 vs 100 battle. I believe one 100manteam of Sword and board crossbowmen would beat all other kind of setups over and over if played somewhat sensibly and with patience.


Offline Lorenzo_of_Iberia

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Re: How to discourage no-risk playstyles?
« Reply #21 on: October 21, 2012, 01:32:55 pm »
0
TLDR version: HA is fing high risk you pillock.

Best TLDR version ever :P

To add my input. I have played most horse classes and also a lot of melee classes (by no means do I claim to be good at any of these). HA do minimal damage as it is, assuming they hit their target. Not many horse archers can fire well off horseback at full speed and so you will notice the HA / HX slow down to a walking pace to fire. This exposes them to lancers / other ranged (they stick out). All this to maybe do 1/3 of damage to an unarmoured peasant. Lets not also forget the horrendous upkeep for a HA, arrows, horse, bow.

Now I will list the classes I have played that when played well counter ha.

- Hoplite : seriously just hold that huscarl shield high and watch them try to get round you
- Any ranged : even a normal xbow unloomed is pretty devastating to an arabian (a common eu1 ha horse)
- Lancer : stupid lancers just charge after a ha chasing them for eternity. This rarely works and you end up with a dead horse. Keep your distance, take your moment and go for a single strike. If you miss, just run off towards your own team and retry later.
- any teamplayer : stick a pike being a shield and get that shield to know where you want protection from. No ha is gonna waste their time on that :P

This argument seems all very pointless anyway because if NA1 is anything like Eu1, very few maps allow HA to play at its full potential as an open field map appears ever full moon atm :P
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Offline Joker86

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Re: How to discourage no-risk playstyles?
« Reply #22 on: October 23, 2012, 02:41:21 am »
0
I think the discussion is going into the wrong direction, because it turns to yet nother OP/UP-discussion about HAs.

First things first: I hate HAs. I hate them so much. Not only do they attack over safe distance like archers, which is lame enough, they also have a horse under their arse, making them run away really fast as soon as they encounter any danger. Lame.

But why is it lame? Because I am infantry, and my objective is to kill the entire enemy team. Now good luck with killing horse archers. I don't think many people have a problem with how much damage HAs deal, they have a problem with how difficult they are to kill (while being able to attack you all the time!).

And I think there is nothing you can ever do about it. That's how things were back then, in history, which was real, and which was not about creating a fair game. It was about finding the most effective weapon and to have the biggest advantage possible over the enemy. And horse archery was that ultimate weapon for quite a long time. So game-balance wise there is absolutely nothing you can do about. If horse archers would NOT be able to attack over range, or would NOT have superior mobility, allowing them to escape of dangerous situations, they wouldn't be horse archers any more, and the class wouldn't work any more.

Their effectivity has been lowered a lot in the last few patches, anyway. I'd dare to say that together with archers and cavalry (especially heavy cav) they are the most UP classes in the game. Yes, on one hand it seems weird to say that the classes people tend to complain about most are the most UP classes, but on the other hand it is very logical: there is something wrong with the MECHANICS of those classes, and the devs tried to fix it with lowering the EFFECTIVITY.

The only solution which I can come up with, is a different game mode. Because it's the only way to influence the mechanics without changing them. The classes must still be able to do what they are meant to do, but the use for winning the round needs to be shifted. Of course a horse archer is the perfect symbiosis of dealing damage to whoever they want whenever they want and one of the highest survivabilities in the whole game, which is literally the optimal class for a game mode which has the goal of killing the enemy and surviving yourself.

But how much would this help you if you'd have to stay next to a flag some time? And the flag is perhaps even in "difficult" terrain? (Ruins, woods, rocks, hills, villages, fortifications, castles, water) Suddenly you wouldn't be that effective any more. Your survivability would'nt be that important any more, because killing you is not the objective any more. And you killing all the enemies wouldn't be so much of a problem, any more, because if the last hand full of players manages to fend off the surviving majority of the enemy team for a certain time, they will win the round. Which is definitey a better condition that having to kill every enemy.

Perhaps there are other solutions out there, but I spent  lot of time thinking about the problem, and this is the only idea I had. The only one which keeps the mechanics AND the effectivity untouched, but solves the problem. If you find some other idea, which...

... does not include effectivity nerfs (speed, damage, upkeep, etc.)
... does not change mechanics (e.g. making HA's unable to shoot while moving)
... does not change the game mode (we already had that idea)

.. then tell us.

P.S.: just a small addition: class restrictions shouldn't be the way to go, either. I think it's a horrible solution for a game which is about developing your personal favourite build, you shouldn't be restricted in that freedom.
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Sandersson Jankins

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Re: How to discourage no-risk playstyles?
« Reply #23 on: October 23, 2012, 05:52:13 am »
0
As always, Joker comes in and tells it like it is. He's right on just about everything save for his statement of heavy cavalry being UP in its effectiveness; which I simply disagree with. I do, in fact, agree that HA especially (HX will simply not be discussed as almost everybody agrees that it is gayer than all hell and is therefore exempt from discussion, ha) is under-powered in its effectiveness. My problem is not "HA OP". My problem is "HA almost invincible while dealing low to moderate damage"

SERIOUSLY DEVS, STOP WORKING ON PROJECT ASSBAGINUS FOR A WEEK AND GRIND OUT THIS JOKER/SMOOTHRICH CONQUEST GAME-MODE. YOU'LL KILL THE CANCER THAT IS KILLING CRPG. I'LL EVEN GIVE YOUR DICK A FRIENDLY TUG.
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Offline Lorenzo_of_Iberia

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Re: How to discourage no-risk playstyles?
« Reply #24 on: October 23, 2012, 11:19:05 am »
+1
Seriously, if you can't kill a HA or outlast him dont pick a fight with it. Cavalry cant kill pikemen, 1h swords struggle against horsemen, non shield players cant chase down an archer. HA are not invincible it is just that you are clearly not playing a class that has the ability to counter them unless they do something stupid. If you want to counter them so much go play ranged and shoot their horse (an easy target) or play hoplite and protect the rear of your team or just take a throwing weapon.

As I said I can testify to their ability to die because I do kill them and quite a lot. My standard xbow/ 1h / shield alt brings down their horses with consumate ease, they often just get killed on the ground a minute later (if that). If I can do that at lvl 22 they clearly are not invincible :P
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Offline Kafein

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Re: How to discourage no-risk playstyles?
« Reply #25 on: October 23, 2012, 12:12:05 pm »
+2
Seriously, if you can't kill a HA or outlast him dont pick a fight with it. Cavalry cant kill pikemen, 1h swords struggle against horsemen, non shield players cant chase down an archer. HA are not invincible it is just that you are clearly not playing a class that has the ability to counter them unless they do something stupid. If you want to counter them so much go play ranged and shoot their horse (an easy target) or play hoplite and protect the rear of your team or just take a throwing weapon.

As I said I can testify to their ability to die because I do kill them and quite a lot. My standard xbow/ 1h / shield alt brings down their horses with consumate ease, they often just get killed on the ground a minute later (if that). If I can do that at lvl 22 they clearly are not invincible :P

It's always a problem when all melee classes are unable to kill a non-melee class. As Joker said, not because the non-melee class is OP in it's effectivity, but because being forced to kill it without the tools is like asking fish to climb trees. Except in battle this actually happens all the time. As any class is required to be able to kill any other class, all classes should actually be able to do that, but they are not. Instead of "fixing" mechanics that can't really be changed (HA will always be virtually invulnerable to melee), adding a conquest gamemode would solve these issues by not forcing melee to kill something they can't. Also, we could finally see some real open battlefield that would not result in camping.

Offline Joker86

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Re: How to discourage no-risk playstyles?
« Reply #26 on: October 23, 2012, 12:15:19 pm »
+1
Seriously, if you can't kill a HA or outlast him dont pick a fight with it.

It's not like I could decide to pick the fight or not at the end of the round, when the HA is a survivor. And tell me a class a HA must choose to not pick the fight as well. There is none, they can basically fight everybody, with different chances of success, but still.

But all of it doesn't matter, because my point was a completely different one. Actually my point was, that the effectivity of a HA is not the problem, the circumstances of the fight are. That's why I suggested to change the game mode, and if you read between the lines (or read the post at all) you would have noticed that I mentioned that I think HAs are UP (because of failed dev balancing trying to balance a class mechanic problem by changing the class effectivity), and this would imply that if the game mode got changed I would support a buff for HAs. Because I do. So thanks for your downvote, I will think twice the next time before I support a minority class like HAs...  :rolleyes:
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Lorenzo_of_Iberia

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Re: How to discourage no-risk playstyles?
« Reply #27 on: October 23, 2012, 01:34:18 pm »
+1
replying to Jankins here joker ;). But the whole idea that ha can eternally avoid you is rubbish. They run out of ammo eventually or get shot down. It is the same concept with kiting ranged tbh. If no cav is about then no one can catch him and he can kite eternally. There is no difference. With flags though this problem of delaying at the end is mostly not an issue atm. Most Ha I know charge into melee when presented with difficult odds but even if they don't, flags appear quick enough for it not to matter.
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Offline Sandersson Jankins

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Re: How to discourage no-risk playstyles?
« Reply #28 on: October 24, 2012, 12:11:08 am »
0
replying to Jankins here joker ;). But the whole idea that ha can eternally avoid you is rubbish. They run out of ammo eventually or get shot down. It is the same concept with kiting ranged tbh. If no cav is about then no one can catch him and he can kite eternally. There is no difference. With flags though this problem of delaying at the end is mostly not an issue atm. Most Ha I know charge into melee when presented with difficult odds but even if they don't, flags appear quick enough for it not to matter.

Once again, everything Joker said was spot-on. And you're right on one point; an HA does not have infinite ammunition to shoot at a person. That much is true. The problem is simply with the game-mode. When the objective is to kill the entire enemy team, and that objective is impossible for the majority (assuming one team does not have a lovely cav/ranged stack), shit gets fucked. You're also relatively correct on the issue of flags appearing, but I would simply rather not wait an extra 2-3 minutes for flags to appear every round simply because a high-agility archer, HA, or HX is fine with having fun at the expense of the majority of the server. I'm not attempting to pick on HAs alone here. I respect HA players for the skill needed to be effective, I truly do. That shit isn't easy. I probably couldn't do it very well. I also respect HAs that refuse to draw the round out for a large amount of time, and I let them know that in-game. However, I have NO respect for someone who can not feasibly win a round, but chooses to play as though he or she could. None at all.

Also, Boss Awesome, I am perfectly respectful and dignified on these forums. I don't talk shit, I refuse to call people names. I'll gladly call you a bundle of sticks all day in-game if I feel that you're having fun at other players' expense, because it is an entirely different environment. If you have something to say to me besides "deal with it/this game is called MOUNT and blade/superior tactics win", please, do it. I welcome your opinions and thoughts, and I will remain absolutely respectful to you in this habitat. Just because text in a video game has made you upset with me is no reason to -1 my posts without an explanation. I mean, renown and infamy is extremely important. If I get too many infamy points, I'll lose hours of sleep at night and become irritable during the day.

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Afterthought: Once again, I believe that ranged cavalry and high-athletics archers are much more noticable and frustrating on NA servers. On EU there is a larger proportion of ranged players; HA/HX are more likely to get shot down in the first minute of the round instead of constantly, consistently being the last players alive.
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Offline Turboflex

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Re: How to discourage no-risk playstyles?
« Reply #29 on: October 24, 2012, 04:29:13 pm »
0
HA/HX are rarely difference makers. They just don't do enough damage. Even the best like Rohipnoyl would be making a much bigger impact going as lancer or on foot with armor and a melee wep instead.

Now that flags generally engage with 3 mins left they are no longer huge bothers either with trolling delay tactics.

The real high reward, low risk class is lancers. needs to be some potential disadvantage to cav like taking heavy fall damage when your horse goes does at high speed.