Author Topic: Heirlooms... what to do? Theft, delete all, do nothing, ...  (Read 1890 times)

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Offline Kherr

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Heirlooms... what to do? Theft, delete all, do nothing, ...
« on: April 14, 2011, 04:28:31 pm »
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I read a lot about heirlooms and what to do with them in other threads. A few weeks ago the bandit Fasader stole a lot...

There are low generation player with no or only one or two heirlooms, medium player with a few and no liver with a lot of heirloomed items. There are people out there with full heirloomed armor and weapons.

So it's unbalanced.

So what to do? Bandit Fasader again? Imho that would not be a good idea. The last time he stole about two third of the heirlooms. The advantage of the no liver would still exist. Also then we could think about the gen bonus also... easy for the non liver to get their heirlooms back.

I would prefer a solution which implements a limited use of  heirloomed items. So the no liver are not able to use fully heirloomed armor and weapons all the time.

What about a modified repair system? The repair costs could increase for each heirlooming.
0 heirlooms : 0
1 heirloom   : + 5% of weapon/armor cost
2 heirlooms : + 10% of weapon/armor cost for the specificed item/s for each heirlooming
3 heirlooms : + 15% of weapon/armor cost for the specificed item/s for each heirlooming
4 heirlooms : + 20% of weapon/armor cost for the specificed item/s for each heirlooming
5 heirlooms : + 25% of weapon/armor cost for the specificed item/s for each heirlooming
6 heirlooms : + 30% of weapon/armor cost for the specificed item/s for each heirlooming

So let us assume you use a big sword 10,000 gold worth and you heirloomed it two times. The base for the repair price would be  2 * 10% higher.. so 12,000 gold.

If you use a good armor one time heirloomed (20,000 gold) and the two times heirloomed big sword (10,000) the repair base would be 23,000 (+ 1 * 15%) gold for the armor and 13,000 (+ 2 * 15%) for the sword.

So if you have only a few heirlooms it is not a big problem to use them... but you will run out of money very fast if you equip a lot of heirloomed items.

The percentage values are examples only...

What do you think? Better ideas?

Btw... I want to respec my heirlooms. Especially if there is something like the discussed slot system implemented.
And my chars have a lot of heirloomed items... i would not like it if the heirloomed items would be stolen or deleted.

Offline Vicious666

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Re: Heirlooms... what to do? Theft, delete all, do nothing, ...
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2011, 05:07:11 pm »
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idiotic propose simply becouse even  by heirlooming  medium stuff,  it become impossible to use it  with  current upkeep


consider  loom a simple sidesword  (around 10k) and   your shield,     another 10k ,     that become around  27k  of equipment.     considering that average affordable equip is   30-35k,  that leaves  to the ppl only       3-8k for   armor-gauntlets- helm.   

so basicly  all in leather.      that favourite already  str stacker      and    2hander who can perma one shoot  anybody , and indirectly boost   again   archers xbowers and throwers.        becouse with increase of upkeep cost on loom, we gonna lose even more  armor protection since everybody will prefer use theyr loomed  weapon over armor

Offline Kafein

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Re: Heirlooms... what to do? Theft, delete all, do nothing, ...
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2011, 05:10:57 pm »
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You are making upkeep even worse than it already is, without giving a solution.

Offline Kherr

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Re: Heirlooms... what to do? Theft, delete all, do nothing, ...
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2011, 05:28:46 pm »
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idiotic propose simply becouse even  by heirlooming  medium stuff,  it become impossible to use it  with  current upkeep

It is unbalanced if some guys wear full heirloomed equipment all the time. The actual retirement procedure is bogus. Proof? Here:

i take order of masterwork  weapon on request :)

can do in  5 day a masterwork

Offline Vicious666

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Re: Heirlooms... what to do? Theft, delete all, do nothing, ...
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2011, 05:49:35 pm »
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It is unbalanced if some guys wear full heirloomed equipment all the time. The actual retirement procedure is bogus. Proof? Here:

only becouse you are too lazy to make them, remove them         is only your personal QQ, whatever the system will be in crpg i will always have advantage becouse whenever an advantage is gained by time, i will do that.  so QQ about   is pointless.  every role play game is based on time more you play more you get.

you not suggest solutions you only cry becouse  you are like the fox who not was able to jump enought high for reach the grape


this 3d is  against my interest of  high gen player go and read it

http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,3977.0.html
« Last Edit: April 14, 2011, 05:51:37 pm by Vicious666 »

Offline Thalamond

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Re: Heirlooms... what to do? Theft, delete all, do nothing, ...
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2011, 07:44:58 pm »
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Wow dude, this (OP) suggestion is lame.  :rolleyes:  Go play a mod without character progress then.

Offline Kherr

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Re: Heirlooms... what to do? Theft, delete all, do nothing, ...
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2011, 08:56:53 pm »
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Guys... believe it or not, I have enough heirlooms. I dont want to loose them.

I think you miss the point. We had a big patch and the bandit Fasader. Why?
1. They wanted to make retirement much harder.
2. They wanted to make heirloomed items rare and special.

You can check chadz messages. So... imho they did not succeed. With high gen char retirement is easy and there are a lot of heirloomed items out there.
So there are now again discussions about stealing heirloomed items.

I want to avoid that and suggested something different.

The system will change... whether you like it or not.

Offline Diomedes

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Re: Heirlooms... what to do? Theft, delete all, do nothing, ...
« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2011, 08:57:52 pm »
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I'm really in favour of OPs suggestion.  Of course the numbers are placeholders but even in their raw state they work pretty well in my preliminary calculations.  But there's two arguments to be made here:

Is the suggestion justified?

Yes.  Each heirloom is statistically only a small bonus, but in some cases that small bonus has a disproportionate effect.  A masterwork side sword (MSS), for example, has 103 speed.  There are very few weapons, of any generation, that can match that speed.  This means that a MSS in close combat is almost unequaled in terms of speed.  It's not just a 2% bump to speed, but a massive head and shoulders advantage.  The SS moves from being a fast weapon to quite frequently the fastest weapon on the field.  Tactically, this is an incredibly important feature for both a person wielding a MSS and an opponent of one.  The wielder, if they're competent, knows that they can spam almost any opponent to death so long as they aren't interrupted.  The opponent of a MSS must either play with an exceptionally tactical mind or retreat in the face of the MSS.

The other important case is Goretooth.  He's a tank, with 3rd gen black armour over his entire body.  Many weapons can't penetrate at all, and those that do often do little-to-no actual damage.  If even one part of his armour were less Lordly than the rest he'd be an approachable target.  Players could aim for his legs, for example, or even just have a better chance at penetrating his breastplate.  As it stands, Goretooth fights battles with many opponents' attack not even registering.  This seems inappropriate to me, and a situation to be avoided.  Increases the overall price of such expensive gear may open up even the thickest of tin cans to some weakness in their equipment and, in my view, make combat far more interesting than just kicking the can till it stops moving.

Is it feasible?

I think so.  Vicious made a straw man argument out of the costs which I think distracted from the real merits of OP's case.  I think I can respond and reconstruct a proper argument for him:

idiotic propose simply becouse even  by heirlooming  medium stuff,  it become impossible to use it  with  current upkeep

consider  loom a simple sidesword  (around 10k) and   your shield,     another 10k ,     that become around  27k  of equipment.     considering that average affordable equip is   30-35k,  that leaves  to the ppl only       3-8k for   armor-gauntlets- helm.   

There are two claims here, both of which are erroneous.  Vicious claims that medium armour would be impractical with OP's proposed cost increase.  Let's take an actual example:

Sarranid Guard Armour heirloomed 3 times gets the same body armour as Transitional Heraldic Mail (52) and it weighs way less.  However, even with a 30% increase in cost it's still more than 8000 gold cheaper than Transitional Heraldic Armour.  This is a good case of medium armour becoming far more effective yet staying cost efficient.  And, as OP said, these numbers are just placeholders.

The 1h+shield example was also flawed.  A "simple sidesword" is the best and most expensive 1h in the game.  "Your shield," apparently a steel shield (as even a masterwork huscarl would only come out to a little over 8k), is also the most expensive gear available to a 1h.  Even taking that into account, I've already reviewed why a MSS would be exceptionally valuable even for its price. 


All in all I think OP has a good point.  It needs to be balanced, sure, but it's a solid idea.  A friend suggested to me that there should be 3 armour-heirloom slots, that are free, but the fourth starts to cost extra gold.  Weapons, on the other hand, should start to cost extra from the first heirloom.  I'm not a developer so I can't give a very informed opinion on price, but perhaps the additional price should only apply to the highest tier gear?  For your consideration.

Offline Teak

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Re: Heirlooms... what to do? Theft, delete all, do nothing, ...
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2011, 09:10:23 pm »
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Remove half of current heirlooms, and furture retirement with bonus at level 32?

Offline Dravic

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Re: Heirlooms... what to do? Theft, delete all, do nothing, ...
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2011, 09:23:02 pm »
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Remove half of current heirlooms, and furture retirement with bonus at level 32?

NO!
___________________________

Take a look at this:
http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,3959.msg71820.html#msg71820

What do you think?

Offline Kophka

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Re: Heirlooms... what to do? Theft, delete all, do nothing, ...
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2011, 09:55:08 pm »
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I'm gen 6 with 4 heirlooms, instead of 6, due to the last theft. It's pretty damn tough getting heirlooms now unless your Gen 12+, so it'd be pretty crappy to steal them from the guys who aren't abusing the system with a new Master Work item every week.

Offline Dravic

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Re: Heirlooms... what to do? Theft, delete all, do nothing, ...
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2011, 09:56:29 pm »
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Kophka, that is why I am posting my suggestion. My previous post ;)

Offline Havoco

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Re: Heirlooms... what to do? Theft, delete all, do nothing, ...
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2011, 02:42:30 am »
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IMO with these changes, all heirlooms should be removed. And for every 3 heirlooms removed, give the player 1 gen.
Ie.  Gen 18 with 10 heirlooms gets +3 gen so now he is at gen 21.
With an heirloom cap at 15-20.
Gen+H/3 can vary.

Edit: gen 1-5 every heirloom
6-10 every 2 heirlooms
11+ every 3

But not quite sure Why this is being discussed since chadz already said there is no theft coming.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2011, 03:04:42 am by Havoco »
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Offline Vicious666

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Re: Heirlooms... what to do? Theft, delete all, do nothing, ...
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2011, 03:15:12 am »
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Guys... believe it or not, I have enough heirlooms. I dont want to loose them.

I think you miss the point. We had a big patch and the bandit Fasader. Why?
1. They wanted to make retirement much harder.
2. They wanted to make heirloomed items rare and special.

You can check chadz messages. So... imho they did not succeed. With high gen char retirement is easy and there are a lot of heirloomed items out there.
So there are now again discussions about stealing heirloomed items.

I want to avoid that and suggested something different.

The system will change... whether you like it or not.

stealing  loom is not a solution is a dumb  temporeanan remedial.
nothing else.

you remove from me  2/3 of loom ? fine in 2 week i remake them.      just go give you an example while all others cant replace theyr loom so fast.  indirectly, you bost high gen player even more



IMO with these changes, all heirlooms should be removed. And for every 3 heirlooms removed, give the player 1 gen.
Ie.  Gen 18 with 10 heirlooms gets +3 gen so now he is at gen 21.
With an heirloom cap at 15-20.
Gen+H/3 can vary.

Edit: gen 1-5 every heirloom
6-10 every 2 heirlooms
11+ every 3

But not quite sure Why this is being discussed since chadz already said there is no theft coming.

with that  idea i go gen 40 :O and gonna make 1x loom /day
if you not realize  gen 40  at x1  is 4900 xp  at    x5  is  24500 xp  / min   
« Last Edit: April 15, 2011, 03:18:30 am by Vicious666 »

Offline Havoco

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Re: Heirlooms... what to do? Theft, delete all, do nothing, ...
« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2011, 03:23:56 am »
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You're still gonna have to work for it.believe it or not not all players are gen 30+ and play crpg 10 hours a day.
I think about 5% of the crpg players are gen 30+
« Last Edit: April 15, 2011, 03:27:30 am by Havoco »
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