2 slot items

[Osiris]

That doesn't sound like much of a hybrid to me, man. It sounds like a person with a last resort alternative. Unless we're talking about some of the best here, a one hander alone isn't going to stand much of a  chance against a rhade, harmless,  or a goretooth.


I think the point is Archers etc are not supposed to stand an equal chance against pure 2h or pure polearms if they did everyone would roll archer.

[Darkkarma]

That doesn't sound like much of a hybrid to me, man. It sounds like a person with a last resort alternative. Unless we're talking about some of the best here, a one hander alone isn't going to stand much of a  chance against a rhade, harmless,  or a goretooth.


I think the point is Archers etc are not supposed to stand an equal chance against pure 2h or pure polearms if they did everyone would roll archer.

I agree whole-heartedly , but a 50 wpf archer against a 130-140 wpf melee build in a melee fight doesn't exactly sound even to me as it is. Why make it that much harder for them?

[Nemeth]

That doesn't sound like much of a hybrid to me, man. It sounds like a person with a last resort alternative. Unless we're talking about some of the best here, a one hander alone isn't going to stand much of a  chance against a rhade, harmless,  or a goretooth. Also, regular  hybrid archers with their 50 max wpf would probably disagree with that "best of both worlds" analogy. They're going to be even a bit worse off when it comes to being able to defend against melee fighters.  Again, I don't see why we couldn't achieve the same results with steepening wpf requirements or making certain weapons need an additional requirement.


It's still of course way too early to tell, and I may be proven wrong, but Hybrid builds in alot of cases are being changed from "Why not" to "Why bother?" It's going from one extreme to another.

I think you still don't unerstand the mentality of hybrids. It's not supposed to be a "awesome at range, awesome in melee". You will be able to get high/top tier melee weapon while having mid tier ranged weapon, or the other way around.
Also, the wpf argument - I suppose you know very well that it doesn't mean shit. You are perfectly capable of melee with 1 wpf. There is simply not big enough difference between 1 and 150 to say that 1 wpf is useless. That's simply not true.

[Babelfish]

I agree whole-heartedly , but a 50 wpf archer against a 130-140 wpf melee build in a melee fight doesn't exactly sound even to me as it is. Why make it that much harder for them?

The scales favors them, due to their ability to spit arrows on their foes. Making them unable to use the best melee weapons would even the scales.

[Erasmas]

You will be able to get high/top tier melee weapon while having mid tier ranged weapon, or the other way around.

Not true. If I choose top tier xbow, I will not be able to use even practice dagger with arena shield. I am sentenced to a twohander or a polearm (weak one). In other words, hybrids like <weak 1h+ weak shield+top tier xbow> will be impossible. And that does not seem to be fair.

To be clear - I can agree that one shouldn't be able to use top tier everything (here again - upkeep was supposed to sort it out; it did not)

[Darkkarma]

I think you still don't unerstand the mentality of hybrids. It's not supposed to be a "awesome at range, awesome in melee". You will be able to get high/top tier melee weapon while having mid tier ranged weapon, or the other way around.
Also, the wpf argument - I suppose you know very well that it doesn't mean shit. You are perfectly capable of melee with 1 wpf. There is simply not big enough difference between 1 and 150 to say that 1 wpf is useless. That's simply not true.

I've never once stated that we should get the best of both worlds but let's be realistic here, a mid tier weapon such as a"standard crossbow or bow is going to take multiple shots to kill an enemy, don't even get me started on strength builds.
Are you trying to tell me that good player with 50 wpf has as good a chance of beating another player with 150 wpf in an a melee fight? Not even including the average difference in power strike, ironflesh and so on? While certainly not completely unbalanced, it definitely isn't a very tough guess to find out whos going to win most often in a melee confrontation like that.  Now, with crossbow hybrids, I agree, It literally is a best of both worlds kind of thing atm, and that's why i've been one of the biggest proponent(too my limited knowledge) of getting them put more in a place like bows. This certainly wasn't what I thought would come about, though. This more than anything seems like a sort of blanket fix for pocket pikes, over stacked throwing items, boken hybrids builds, and so on.

The scales favors them, due to their ability to spit arrows on their foes. Making them unable to use the best melee weapons would even the scales.

Them having the ability to spit out arrows does not change the fact that they are at a disadvantage as far as melee is concerned. I mean, unless we are talking about throwing, it's not like they are going to switch from melee to get in a quick shot of range once they get a few feet of distance, then go back into melee. They certainly won't hit as hard , and they certainly won't hit as fast.

[cmp]

Not true. If I choose top tier xbow, I will not be able to use even practice dagger with arena shield. I am sentenced to a twohander or a polearm (weak one). In other words, hybrids like <weak 1h+ weak shield+top tier xbow> is impossible. And that does not seem to be fair.

Huh? If you choose top tier xbow you won't be able to use two handers or polearms (2 slots siege, 1 slot bolts, 1 slot left).

[Beauchamp]

Not true. If I choose top tier xbow, I will not be able to use even practice dagger with arena shield. I am sentenced to a twohander or a polearm (weak one). In other words, hybrids like <weak 1h+ weak shield+top tier xbow> will be impossible. And that does not seem to be fair.

To be clear - I can agree that one shouldn't be able to use top tier everything (here again - upkeep was supposed to sort it out; it did not)

i have never heard of any major change that would have bright sides only...

[Erasmas]

Cmpxchg8b, sorry, I apparently misunderstood that:

There will be a few 1 slot 2h weapons and polearms. The spiked mace is an example for that, the spear and shortened spear are for polearms. I hope to expand the 1 slot selection sometime but for that we need models. In my opinion non-hammer 2h handed weapons with a reach of 70-90 are perfect for the 1 slot thingy and polearms with about 100-130 reach.

If it isgoing to be as you said, one can only have sniper/heavy plus 1h only... lol.

EDIT:

So, apparently, you gentlemen are planning to drive this game in the direction of "twohanders and shielders are super guys, fuck all ranged. If you can't do manual blocking you are not a real man." In fact it means "fuck majority of casual players"....

[cmp]

He means there will be very few of them, most will be 2 or 3 slots.

[Nemeth]

I've never once stated that we should get the best of both worlds but let's be realistic here, a mid tier weapon such as a"standard crossbow or bow is going to take multiple shots to kill an enemy, don't even get me started on strength builds.
Are you trying to tell me that good player with 50 wpf has as good a chance of beating another player with 150 wpf in an a melee fight? Not even including the average difference in power strike, ironflesh and so on? While certainly not completely unbalanced, it definitely isn't a very tough guess to find out whos going to win most often in a melee confrontation like that.  Now, with crossbow hybrids, I agree, It literally is a best of both worlds kind of thing atm, and that's why i've been one of the biggest proponent(too my limited knowledge) of getting them put more in a place like bows. This certainly wasn't what I thought would come about, though. This more than anything seems like a sort of blanket fix for pocket pikes, over stacked throwing items, boken hybrids builds, and so on.

Where did I say that? I said you are capable of melee with 1 wpf. Obviously, if you take two equally skilled players, one with 50 the other with 150 wpf, the higher wpf will have the edge. But since not even with 1 wpf you can be outspammed unless you fail at footwork and timing or choose a super duper slow weapon, there is really no need for hybrids to go over 80/90 wpf in melee (the cookie cutter 15/24 xbow hybrid build will let you do just that easily) to be almost as effective as dedicated melee, while heaving great accuracy with xbow.

[Vibe]

Fact is you'll have to chose between a normal xbow+sword&board and an OP xbow (sniper)+1h. Doesn't sound too bad to me.

[Erasmas]

Fact is you'll have to chose between a normal xbow+sword&board and an OP xbow (sniper)+1h. Doesn't sound too bad to me.

I AM an xbowman. I know and understand what it means to be one. I know that using "OP xbow" means shitload time spent on loading, and appr. 50% of chance to kill someone if I manage to get the hit. Now I hear "you should not be able to defend yourself", because that is what this change means for me.  Well, I understand what you are saying, but I believe that using "OP xbow" and WEAK 1h+shield should be allowed.

[Darkkarma]

Where did I say that? I said you are capable of melee with 1 wpf. Obviously, if you take two equally skilled players, one with 50 the other with 150 wpf, the higher wpf will have the edge. But since not even with 1 wpf you can be outspammed unless you fail at footwork and timing or choose a super duper slow weapon, there is really no need for hybrids to go over 80/90 wpf in melee (the cookie cutter 15/24 xbow hybrid build will let you do just that easily) to be almost as effective as dedicated melee, while heaving great accuracy with xbow.

It's actually very easy to get outspammed by a weapon with much better proficiency. Also, the problem is that most archer builds usually only get about 50 or so wpf to spare into a melee side arm as it is.. Couple that with the lack of power strike and ironflesh and you've got a pretty balanced secondary weapon in most cases. Crossbows should follow a similar model IMO. Rather than see archers take yet ANOTHER hit, and crossbows be brought down a notch.

Fact is you'll have to chose between a normal xbow+sword&board and an OP xbow (sniper)+1h. Doesn't sound too bad to me.

Theres a 3 second reload time, even at masterworked level and 130 WPF, even then you have maybe a 50 percent chance of getting a 1 hit kill even with sharp bolts. Even then, with it's fire speed, getting head shots is pretty damned difficult.


Come on man...

[Vibe]

Theres a 3 second reload time, even at masterworked level and 130 WPF, even then you have maybe a 50 percent chance of getting a 1 hit kill even with sharp bolts. Even then, with it's fire speed, getting head shots is pretty damned difficult.


Come on man...

That's why you have melee to support you and give you enough time to reload lots of times. Or position yourself on the roof. You can easily avoid melee until you're the last man standing. And even then you are able to use that 1h.

Also for the MW sniper kill chance of 50% - nonsense. Learn to pick your targets and you'll get enough kills before you get melee'd. MW sniper has buttloads of damage and it should kill pretty much anyone not in plate, with a body shot.