Cav is a Problem

[Zlisch_The_Butcher]

Ok maybe my solution is a bit lame, but I assure you i'm not out to get Horsethrowers Zlisch. I do like horsethrowers, and all other weird classes.

The sum of what a horse enables players to do is simply too powerful, and very lame to die from.

* A maneuver nerf would open up for some real cav coop, that becoming necessary for success. (Bumping, timing your charge together, harder to evade ranged)
* Lance damage is not that high on paper, but with speed-bonus and the relative ease of achieving headshots it's very powerful in practice for any skilled player.


I would happily pay 20k and 5 points for a special Ninja-magical item which would make me superfast, that wouldn't take up a wep slot, enable a special 1shot kill ability, could make me bump stun other players, remove weight penalties...

...cause you to be unable to block attacks against the lower half of your body, make you unable to properly maneuver, give you a small radius for where you can swing...
Also, I don't care if you're out to get hosrethrowers,
a. You'd effectively nerf them.
b. Nerfing lancers your way is quite retarded.
c. Cav currently do a lot of teamwork, just not formations (rearing by spears and horses cause this to be impossible).
d. And making cav require more skill is still in no way achieved by lowering the amount of things they can do and effectively making cav vs cav "who clicks the left mouse button at the right time" even worse than it is now.

[Chagan_Arslan]

Just to throw in that I don't like this point. I think it is right to limit the impact of skill to a certain ceiling, otherwise, the longer the game is running, you will have growing differences between hardcore and casual gamers, which on long term will always lead to the premature leaving of the casuals, which kills every multiplayer game. I think this is an important point, and if this is one reason for the lance angle nerf, then I think it should stay the way it is.

heh well than i guess your not in a position to complain about the number of cavs ingame now do you ? ;] what next, autoblocker for new guys so they can compete with veteran inf players ? its all matter timing, reflex and predicting... if you got all three of these you can be casual and do very good

[Joker86]

heh well than i guess your not in a position to complain about the number of cavs ingame now do you ? ;] what next, autoblocker for new guys so they can compete with veteran inf players ? its all matter timing, reflex and predicting... if you got all three of these you can be casual and do very good

Nice counter try, I like it. For a short moment I thought "uugghhh... err..." 

The point is, that cRPG is still close to a rock-paper-scissors-system, and such a system needs to have a roughly equal number of all entities to be able to work. 10 rocks vs. 10 papers vs. 10 scissors works. 25 rocks vs. 5 papers vs. 10 scissors does not.

In fact those are two totally different matters. Being outnumbered on the field is one thing, and having different team compositions another. Because being outnumbered is more about the sheer numbers than what classes are actually involved.

My initial point was about one cavalry player being able to defeat several other cavalry players. There is no connection to the team composition, which means the 1 vs. 3 situation could represent all horses on the battlefield or only 10% of them. It's about how much skill should matter.

[Bonze]

I can kill 2-3 Horses every round with my level 20 thrower ,

whats the problem with cav?!

[Rhekimos]

The point is, that cRPG is still close to a rock-paper-scissors-system, and such a system needs to have a roughly equal number of all entities to be able to work. 10 rocks vs. 10 papers vs. 10 scissors works. 25 rocks vs. 5 papers vs. 10 scissors does not.

Why? Is there a committee somewhere regulating the number of times a scissor hand is used in rock-paper-scissors? Is rock-paper-scissors "ruined" if someone uses rock too much?

If cRPG worked like rock-paper-scissors, people would adapt to the enemy team composition, by taking a spear or a shield, for example. Do they?
Granted, some classes have much less potential for this than others, but there's always alts.

[Son Of Odin]

God trying to discredit me out of thin air.. Seriously, reconsider your moderator status before someone else does it for you. If you think it's your job to troll other players that is. Better stay with funny gifs if you are out of arguments.

Well I take the first comment as a compliment. I think I'm doing a good job as a moderator too. To the last one I'd say it's better stay with funny gifs when you have nothing more to say to the person. I'm just tired of arguing the same goddamn thing over and over again. Seriously I don't give a fuck anymore. It is pretty clear that you are only wanting everyone to become melee classes and having fair 1 vs. 1 fights in battle. To me, that's not battle. In your fantasy land, there is no cav, no ranged, only melee footmen and you happily sprinting in the sunny fields while being the most effective backstabber around.

I mean what do you wan't me to say after a post like the one I quoted before? I remember your cav nerf threads and you still offer the same solutions. They were argumented out in those threads many times. I took part in that and you still don't seem realize your suggestion would not make cav more skillbased when you nerf the maneuver etc. I'm not going there anymore...

You are also talking like I (or Kafein) never play anything else than CAVEZIMODEKILLWHORINGCLASS. You are as wrong as a man can be. I've been playing with my archer alt more lately actually because it's been more fun atm.

Using words like "lame deaths", "cav- bundle of sticksry" and trying to get away by saying "Perhaps I'm a bit extreme, but I figure it's time to shout out loud.". You are riding on the wave of cav nerf popularity. People want fast solutions while not fully realizing the consequences. Your propaganda is good, but it's not good enough. 

[Zlisch_The_Butcher]

"Perhaps I'm a bit extreme, but I figure it's time to shout out loud."

That makes it sound like he hasn't been spamming anticav BS for like more than a year.

[BattalGazi]

(click to show/hide)

Hay cav. kadar başınıza taş düşsün sizin

[Son Of Odin]

That makes it sound like he hasn't been spamming anticav BS for like more than a year.

And we all know that's a fat lie!

[Zlisch_The_Butcher]

(click to show/hide)

Hay cav. kadar başınıza taş düşsün sizin

"Wherever life takes you up on your stone" Google translate is fucking awesum.

[Rhekimos]

Well I take the first comment as a compliment. I think I'm doing a good job as a moderator too. To the last one I'd say it's better stay with funny gifs when you have nothing more to say to the person. I'm just tired of arguing the same goddamn thing over and over again. Seriously I don't give a fuck anymore. It is pretty clear that you are only wanting everyone to become melee classes and having fair 1 vs. 1 fights in battle. To me, that's not battle. In your fantasy land, there is no cav, no ranged, only melee footmen and you happily sprinting in the sunny fields while being the most effective backstabber around.

I mean what do you wan't me to say after a post like the one I quoted before? I remember your cav nerf threads and you still offer the same solutions. They were argumented out in those threads many times. I took part in that and you still don't seem realize your suggestion would not make cav more skillbased when you nerf the maneuver etc. I'm not going there anymore...

You are also talking like I (or Kafein) never play anything else than CAVEZIMODEKILLWHORINGCLASS. You are as wrong as a man can be. I've been playing with my archer alt more lately actually because it's been more fun atm.

Using words like "lame deaths", "cav- bundle of sticksry" and trying to get away by saying "Perhaps I'm a bit extreme, but I figure it's time to shout out loud.". You are riding on the wave of cav nerf popularity. People want fast solutions while not fully realizing the consequences. Your propaganda is good, but it's not good enough.

This comes close to how I see things. I'm also dead tired of the debate, if it can be called that, that's simply never going to end.

[BattalGazi]

"Wherever life takes you up on your stone" Google translate is fucking awesum.

That's what I meant ... ehm ... close ... 

[Joker86]

Why? Is there a committee somewhere regulating the number of times a scissor hand is used in rock-paper-scissors? Is rock-paper-scissors "ruined" if someone uses rock too much?

When playing the actual RPS-game, you have the choice of what you take. In cRPG you choose one of those and then you are stuck with it. I hope you understand that it sucks if you choose rock and then notice that the majority of all players on the server are paper.

If cRPG worked like rock-paper-scissors, people would adapt to the enemy team composition, by taking a spear or a shield, for example. Do they?
Granted, some classes have much less potential for this than others, but there's always alts.

There are several reasons why people don't adapt. One is their missing will to adapt, or the missing thinking of "countering" something, rather than wanting to make kills themselves. (For example if on one round they get steamrolled by a cav heavy team, then next round they wouldn't go spearman, pikeman, thrower or archer to counter the horses, they would go cavalry themselves, because they saw cavalry made a lot of kills last round. That's the cRPG way of thinking.).

Another reason is that many people, me included, don't have many alts and play them even more seldom. I am happy whenever I can retire with my main, I don't have the time and patience to also equip alts with heirlooms. (Yes, part of my motivation is grind for better equipment. I guess that's nothing special...)

And finally not everybody likes to play all classes and has corresponding alts.

[Thomek]

@Odin

Yeah and tbh I'm also tired of the whole debate, like I wrote in the first line of my rage post.

Thing is.. the whole "Making cav more skill-based" is something cav players came up with, actually admitting their class grants them easy kills. (but only because inf has no awareness! etc..)

Thing is, it WILL be more skill based when you have to use your brain on the horse. When you can't safely backstab as easily anymore. In any case you will ALWAYS be able to backstab, and that will ALWAYS be very powerful. To give the class additional abilities so you can go "Frontal 1vs1 too" is just insane on top of the backstab ability..  If you like dueling, just become a 2h inf.

What everything boils down to however is that the current situation on EU1 is unbearable for infantry players. And if you don't see that you are extremely blind and fanatical about cav...

Using words like "lame deaths", "cav- bundle of sticksry" and trying to get away by saying "Perhaps I'm a bit extreme, but I figure it's time to shout out loud.". You are riding on the wave of cav nerf popularity. People want fast solutions while not fully realizing the consequences. Your propaganda is good, but it's not good enough. 

Well.. seems to me cRPG is loosing players fast, and to counter that we need some fast solutions. Nerf cav, give 33+ cav players free respecs in return.

In stead we are derailing solutions into "conquest", fall damage and other exotic things that has been suggested years ago but will never happen. 

[Son Of Odin]

Well if this is not just a temporary trend, how do you explain the fact that NA servers don't have the same mass cav atm? I'm sorry I just... I just leave. Just keep making posts like that.

Sometimes use a bigger font to make it look like you have something important to say.

--> out. I'm hungry and annoyed. I'd better get something to eat...