Cav is a Problem

[Joker86]

- a single good lancer could engage multiple cav (group) and kill all of them if he was better, numbers didnt matter.

Just to throw in that I don't like this point. I think it is right to limit the impact of skill to a certain ceiling, otherwise, the longer the game is running, you will have growing differences between hardcore and casual gamers, which on long term will always lead to the premature leaving of the casuals, which kills every multiplayer game. I think this is an important point, and if this is one reason for the lance angle nerf, then I think it should stay the way it is.

[Vibe]

Just to throw in that I don't like this point. I think it is right to limit the impact of skill to a certain ceiling, otherwise, the longer the game is running, you will have growing differences between hardcore and casual gamers, which on long term will always lead to the premature leaving of the casuals, which kills every multiplayer game.

No it doesn't? Why you pulling shit out of your ass now? A lot of multiplayer games that have high skill ceilings / are competitive are very actively played. I'm all for introducing an even higher skill ceiling (Paul doing a good job there). Why causalize games? There's console games if you want to be casual.

[KaMiKaZe_JoE]

FUCK CAV

[Thomek]

Thomekrage reemerges because someone doesn't agree with him

I rage because cRPG right now, with all the cav and archery going on is much less fun that it used to be. I think something should be done, perhaps drastically to fix amount of cav.. Then one could rebuff them a bit later on..

[Miranda]

I rage because cRPG right now, with all the cav and archery going on is much less fun that it used to be. I think something should be done, perhaps drastically to fix amount of cav.. Then one could rebuff them a bit later on..

How would you like to see that? As GK are a cav only clan, can't we play as cav when the cap limit is reached? Thats a bit .... unfair right? Or for the other players that do want to play as Cav and can't due to the fact that the GK's has taken all the slots? This would kill off our clan.

Maybe chop off one leg so we will limp around the map? 

Edit: I mean if we are loosing peeps due to the fact that cav is out of control then maybe there should be a change (i doubt thats the reason though) and not only because they rage because they got killed by a cav player.
Fine nerf us (again).
Im not sure in what way though. My horse (courser) already gets one (or two) shotted by xbow/bows all the time. 75% if the times i hit someone with my lance i dont insta-kill someone (wich is perfectly fine by me i dont couch anyways). Pikes/2H swords (as they should) are lethal for us, stops us, makes us fall and get slaughtered.
Cav vs Cav lancer fights are mostly decided by a roll of the dice by the lance angle the way it is now wich demotivates a lot of cav players by even attempting it (What Chagan_Arslan said aswell).
We pay a shitload of upkeep (again thats fine so do heavy armor inf).

Im sorry but i just fail to see whats not fair about cav atm with the exception of bumping.

[Joker86]

No it doesn't? Why you pulling shit out of your ass now? A lot of multiplayer games that have high skill ceilings / are competitive are very actively played. I'm all for introducing an even higher skill ceiling (Paul doing a good job there). Why causalize games? There's console games if you want to be casual.

But those games are not rock-paper-scissors-based, are they? 

[[ptx]]

But those games are not rock-paper-scissors-based, are they? 

Neither is this?

[Kafein]

[/b]
It's rather shocking that Kafein and Odin are so blinded to this fact, and would rather see the mod, FUN and gameplay die, than to actually look for some radical solutions at this point.

This is not true, for I do not consider the current amount of cav to be endangering the fun of the mod. I believe that above a certain threshold, the cav population is auto-regulated. The more cav there is, the more impractical being one becomes. I have witnessed this phenomena myself, as it used to be much much easier to be a lancer hero back when there were 3 of that class on the server. You were basically always unexpected. Now with a normal amount of cav, dedicating your time to protecting your allies against cav pays off. This doesn't apply to archers and crossbowmen, the only way to regulate them is through nerfs and nerfs, and that's what we did.

I also fully support radical changes :

- Implement rider downing + horse damage on horse collisions, making cav harder without altering it's status towards other classes.
- Other suggestions making lance cav more skillbased would include lance angle changes, and tweaking light horses for more maneuver but less armor. Making a class more skillbased isn't about removing options, it is about creating them and making everything more difficult.
- The equipment weight of the rider should influence the mobility of the horse, and of course high tier, armored horses should be able to carry armored riders with more ease (it only makes sense, and high tier horses are unpopular right now)
- Internal cav balance should be adjusted. Currently lance thrusts deal more damage than 1h cav sword swings, even though being much better in every other way already. Most of the general cav nerfs suggested would hurt lance cav, but utterly destroy 1h cav, and we don't want that. I'd say let's buff 1h cav damage (iirc currently the damage is magically reduced by a raginguriststealthnerf) and nerf that of lance thrusts.
- Let's also have weapon length influencing the horse mobility.
- Increase the skill investment for cav. Like a cavalry combat skill acting like the HA skill.
- Even though that's really radical, light/normal/heavy lances could be 3 slots.
- Conquest mode, very obviously. That would fix kiting archers, and probably cav backstabbing too, to some extent.

High lvl cav has well enough mobility to simply stunlock me then with bumps before I can release another shot.

Are you by any chance playing with one hand ? This is just physically impossible if you move behind the horse.

[Joker86]

Neither is this?

I guess you are right, but RPS is as close as you can get to describe it.

In the end it's my opinion and preference of course, because I value teamwork higher than skill, but I think at least in the case of cRPG too big skill differences will make players leave.

[Zlisch_The_Butcher]

No it doesn't? Why you pulling shit out of your ass now? A lot of multiplayer games that have high skill ceilings / are competitive are very actively played. I'm all for introducing an even higher skill ceiling (Paul doing a good job there). Why causalize games? There's console games if you want to be casual.

Honestly, besides the turnspeed nerf and valor I love the shit out of Vibes opinions. <3

Thomek, go fuck yourself, your idea on fixing cav being the easy way out is fucking retarded, so, your way of making cav require more skill is limiting the amount of choices (a maneuver nerf) and randomly cutting damage in two... also, on my Waki alt I can easily fight lancers if I'm aware and not hugely outnumbered, I can dodge their couches due to huge ath and I can chamber their normal attacks, so please stop crying about poor UP ninjas, and how cav don't use tactics, it's fucking pathetic...
...first of all you suck as a ninja, you probably have never been able to catch anyone with the slightest bit of awareness off guard, so all you are is an agispammer with a fast weapon, secondly if you pay the least bit of attention one cav player can never 1 on 1 you unless you're using some horrible gear/build or you're a really shitty player, now, you claim cav doesn't use teamwork at all but in fact cav is the one class which uses teamwork the most when they aren't randomly couching afks/late spawners/peasants, usually there will be 3-7 cav systematically ganking every inf player who are alone, if it's not teamwork that they gank all their enemies then what the fuck is teamwork?
And finally, Son of Odin has not used his global moderator status for anything abusive, but you feel that because of his opinions which he totally does not show any bias towards in his moderating he shouldn't be allowed to be a global moderator, even if Son of Odin was a chocolate chip cookie as long as he doesn't show the least bit of bias in his actions you have no reason to hate him and what he is doing, this is just you crying about him not agreeing with your stupid bullshit.

I think something should be done, perhaps drastically to fix amount of cav.. Then one could rebuff them a bit later on..

So, I feel there are to many ninjas right now, let's nerf ninjas making katanas and Nodachis and Wakis deal 0 damage for one month, then we could rebuff them afterwards once their numbers have been bleed down.

[Zlisch_The_Butcher]

(click to show/hide)

This is not true, for I do not consider the current amount of cav to be endangering the fun of the mod. I believe that above a certain threshold, the cav population is auto-regulated. The more cav there is, the more impractical being one becomes. I have witnessed this phenomena myself, as it used to be much much easier to be a lancer hero back when there were 3 of that class on the server. You were basically always unexpected. Now with a normal amount of cav, dedicating your time to protecting your allies against cav pays off. This doesn't apply to archers and crossbowmen, the only way to regulate them is through nerfs and nerfs, and that's what we did.

I also fully support radical changes :

- Implement rider downing + horse damage on horse collisions, making cav harder without altering it's status towards other classes.
- Other suggestions making lance cav more skillbased would include lance angle changes, and tweaking light horses for more maneuver but less armor. Making a class more skillbased isn't about removing options, it is about creating them and making everything more difficult.
- The equipment weight of the rider should influence the mobility of the horse, and of course high tier, armored horses should be able to carry armored riders with more ease (it only makes sense, and high tier horses are unpopular right now)
- Internal cav balance should be adjusted. Currently lance thrusts deal more damage than 1h cav sword swings, even though being much better in every other way already. Most of the general cav nerfs suggested would hurt lance cav, but utterly destroy 1h cav, and we don't want that. I'd say let's buff 1h cav damage (iirc currently the damage is magically reduced by a raginguriststealthnerf) and nerf that of lance thrusts.
- Let's also have weapon length influencing the horse mobility.
- Increase the skill investment for cav. Like a cavalry combat skill acting like the HA skill.
- Even though that's really radical, light/normal/heavy lances could be 3 slots.
- Conquest mode, very obviously. That would fix kiting archers, and probably cav backstabbing too, to some extent.


Are you by any chance playing with one hand ? This is just physically impossible if you move behind the horse.

This is clearly wrong, the only way to make cav more skillbased is to make it a "who clicks the left mouse button at the right time" game, cav will take a lot more skill once the possibility of doing anything else than just "releasing the left mouse button at the right time while holding W" are removed. -Thomek style logic.

[Kafein]

I do not support Zlisch's rage climaxes, but cav will not be "fixed" by making it dull and reducing the differences between a bad and a good cav player.

If that kind of logic was applied to melee infantry, we would lose the ability to feint or something.


Anyway, it is quite difficult to make cavalry harder to play without reducing the options. We can't really nerf horse HP and armor much more since arabians already die with two body shots. That's why I think making horsemen specialize more into cavalry rather than just putting a few skill points in riding is an interesting path to explore.

[Smoothrich]

make the heavy lance 3 slots

[Thomek]

This is clearly wrong, the only way to make cav more skillbased is to make it a "who clicks the left mouse button at the right time" game, cav will take a lot more skill once the possibility of doing anything else than just "releasing the left mouse button at the right time while holding W" are removed. -Thomek style logic.

Ok maybe my solution is a bit lame, but I assure you i'm not out to get Horsethrowers Zlisch. I do like horsethrowers, and all other weird classes.

The sum of what a horse enables players to do is simply too powerful, and very lame to die from.

* A maneuver nerf would open up for some real cav coop, that becoming necessary for success. (Bumping, timing your charge together, harder to evade ranged)
* Lance damage is not that high on paper, but with speed-bonus and the relative ease of achieving headshots it's very powerful in practice for any skilled player.


I would happily pay 20k and 5 points for a special Ninja-magical item which would make me superfast, that wouldn't take up a wep slot, enable a special 1shot kill ability, could make me bump stun other players, remove weight penalties etc etc...  

[Kafein]

Ok maybe my solution is a bit lame, but I assure you i'm not out to get Horsethrowers Zlisch. I do like horsethrowers, and all other weird classes.

The sum of what a horse enables players to do is simply too powerful, and very lame to die from.

* A maneuver nerf would open up for some real cav coop, that becoming necessary for success. (Bumping, timing your charge together, harder to evade ranged)
* Lance damage is not that high on paper, but with speed-bonus and the relative ease of achieving headshots it's very powerful in practice for any skilled player.

Nerfing maneuver only leads to one and only one thing. More backstabbing.

Maneuver is the single most important horse attribute when it comes to frontal charges and generally combat.


Even though it sounds good, placing bets on teamwork is not going to work. We have to adapt the game to what the players do with it, the reverse won't happen. The only form of cav teamwork that works and is actually used is rapetrains. First guy bumps, second guy lance the poor fella on the ground, hopefully oneshotting him. Any other kind of direct cav teamwork in a pub environment is bound to failure since horses are blocked by ally and enemy horses alike. All horses not traveling parallel to you are a potential danger, and even when they do they still represent a threat because they will turn right or left at some point. Moving a tightly packed force of cav coherently on the battlefield would require hours of training and look absolutely awesome, but that's not going to happen. Even more so because 99% of the maps on the battle server are not battlefields but some kind of ww2 skirmish zone, or a city.