Cav is a Problem

[Ptolemy]

I don't see why he would want to ninja edit it later, I think everything he said was spot on. I also agree fully with Xynox and Joker (whom I have new-found respect for).

This is the part that I hate about being a ninja (aside from the part where I'm getting couched, lanced and shot by archers). Because no matter how much I happen to agree with a post that a ninja makes, other people will always see me as "just another ninja, backing up his buddy". I just happen to agree. That's all.


  Please stop labeling me

[Gurnisson]

I only want one bad thing to happen to the cavalry class

(click to show/hide)

Fix the force field shields that cavalry has. Slash a horse, see your hit magically sucked up by the rider's shield. Get one-hit or bumped. QQ

[Dexxtaa]

I only want one bad thing to happen to the cavalry class

(click to show/hide)

Fix the force field shields that cavalry has. Slash a horse, see your hit magically sucked up by the rider's shield. Get one-hit or bumped. QQ

Tell you what, the craziest thing I saw was when a rider blocked up while facing away from the overhead that was coming down on him from behind, and the sound of the *clink* of a successful block. The entire server went nuts with disbelief.

And that's the story of my dumbest experience watching cRPG.

[Son Of Odin]

I don't see why he would want to ninja edit it later, I think everything he said was spot on.

Well I think his post was epic too, but in other way I presume. Just wanted it to be saved. You know people edit their posts later on when the discussion gets new turns etc

I only want one bad thing to happen to the cavalry class

(click to show/hide)

Fix the force field shields that cavalry has. Slash a horse, see your hit magically sucked up by the rider's shield. Get one-hit or bumped. QQ

THIS! Completely agree that the forcefield is annoying and bs. Shield absorbing the hit when you hit the horse to the head area, NO WAI! Shield taking the hit when you lance someone from behind? NO WAI!

[Vibe]

I only want one bad thing to happen to the cavalry class

(click to show/hide)

Fix the force field shields that cavalry has. Slash a horse, see your hit magically sucked up by the rider's shield. Get one-hit or bumped. QQ

Fucking this. You're there camping with long spear protecting players, all optimistic on how you'll be able to dehorse cav with shields.. guess what FUCK YOU, here's a nice bigass force field even if you stab like 2 meters away from the actual shield.

[Dexxtaa]

Fucking this. You're there camping with long spear protecting players, all optimistic on how you'll be able to dehorse cav with shields.. guess what FUCK YOU, here's a nice bigass force field even if you stab like 2 meters away from the actual shield.

And my reaction every time I'm the piker:

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

[Overdriven]

i dont like chasing cav as a HA,it's fairly boring just riding behind someone shooting at them. I'd rather ride around and shoot at everything that moves!

That's where playing chicken with lancers comes in. Ride straight for them, it's the same technique as shotgunning melee players. You shoot just as they are about to release their lance strike on you, cancel their attack, cut of their horse by swerving in front of them and cause them to get lanced by your own team, ganked by inf or at the very least give yourself a couple of free shots on a stationary target. Riding behind cav and chasing them is a lot less effective. It's partially why I use a champ courser, so I can almost always put myself in the forward position, keep ahead of them whilst shooting them and cut them off so they become stationary. A stationary lancer is usually a dead one, or at least his horse is. I used to be very good at this and probably 75% of my time in battle is spent fighting cavalry like this.

I wouldn't do it with your build though, if you miss you are guaranteed dead thanks to the speed bonus onto the lance, so you need the accuracy.

[Miranda]

That's where playing chicken with lancers comes in. Ride straight for them, it's the same technique as shotgunning melee players. You shoot just as they are about to release their lance strike on you, cancel their attack, cut of their horse by swerving in front of them and cause them to get lanced by your own team, ganked by inf or at the very least give yourself a couple of free shots on a stationary target. Riding behind cav and chasing them is a lot less effective. It's partially why I use a champ courser, so I can almost always put myself in the forward position, keep ahead of them whilst shooting them and cut them off so they become stationary. A stationary lancer is usually a dead one, or at least his horse is. I used to be very good at this and probably 75% of my time in battle is spent fighting cavalry like this.

I wouldn't do it with your build though, if you miss you are guaranteed dead thanks to the speed bonus onto the lance, so you need the accuracy.

 

Don't tell them that.... Happens to me a lot of times as a lancer cav.

[Chagan_Arslan]

blabla

so anyway how will your simple solutions increase amount of aware players, teamwork in servers and revert lancers from backstabbing role ?
restore biggest cav predator back and watch what happens

[Ninja_Khorin]

(click to show/hide)

This topic has been discussed to bits and pieces too many times, but the cav lobby keeps riding on lead by Odin and Kafein, not realizing that battle-gameplay is completely destroyed for infantry atm, a big part of the reason we see so few players nowadays.

Just to recap:
1. Cav is not OP 1vs1.  OK, true in most cases but BATTLE IS NOT 1vs1
2. If just infantry would organize.. TRUE, but they shouldn't have to organize better than cav to reach similar efficiency.
3. In time this "wave of cav will pass like 2h and archerwaves" Not true, archerwaves have been countered by justified nerfs. The cav-wave we see now is a result of 2h skill levels rising, thus players seeking the easy way out cause they can't compete on the ground.
4. "But cav is not easy". Yes it is very easy to get kills with it. Especially if you are riding around with loomed lances and horses.
5. "But it's expensive!"  Doesn't seem to be a major problem...
6. It's all GK's fault! No, they are just using the system as it was laid out for them.

TOO MUCH CAV CREATES LAME DEATHS FOR EVERYONE ELSE:
* Ninja-backstabs:   Super-silent insta-kills with very little risk involved, and super speedy getaway. The speed of the horse enables cav players to zoom past many, many, many more targets than an infantry player can even think about approaching.
* Bumps. Extremely powerful stun that enables other cav and teamplayers to get the kill.
* The easiest headshots in the game. A cav player simply needs to hold his lance or sword at the right angle to hit the soft-spot doubling(?) the damage given.

To sum it up, all this cav-bundle of sticksry is killing the mod. Players are leaving like never before. Perhaps I'm a bit extreme, but I figure it's time to shout out loud.

It's rather shocking that Kafein and Odin are so blinded to this fact, and would rather see the mod, FUN and gameplay die, than to actually look for some radical solutions at this point.


Simple solution is simple.
- Nerf lance damage further to compensate for the easyness of achieving headshots.
- Nerf maneuverability.

Something is wrong when I do way way more average damage with my 4ps alt on an arabian than I do with a GS on my other alt.. And yes. Those arabians ARE go carts and ridiculous.

And stop dreaming about "conquest" afaik that mode is mostly in Jokers head atm. Is a new game-mode the solution to cav being OP in battle???? What are you smoking?

Going EU1.

Press the wrong button and shouts in admintext
Getting Abooze responses
Get killed by archers
Get killed by cav
Write nerf thread in forums
Getting argued with by the cav-lobby and random trollers
Going EU1
Give a controversial Kick for delaying, everyone rages abooze!
Random disconnect
Going EU3
Gets beaten hard
Going EU1
Ban a leecher
Good night.

<3

[Thomek]

so anyway how will your simple solutions increase amount of aware players, teamwork in servers and revert lancers from backstabbing role ?

Cav has always been using this argument.. It won't ever happen. A cav player can just wait until the player gets into a duel then bump or couch or hit him or both. Duels nowadays require 100% concentration, means very little left to concentrate on the sharks waiting to go for the kill, or the random cav riding from around a corner taking the opportunity.

I do understand the lance-angle idea.. It's just that I really don't see it helping much.. We would rely on "honorable" cav going for other cav first to reduce their numbers? Problem is that it makes it even safer for cav to poke at anyone but greatsword users and pike-stylers.

[Joker86]

And stop dreaming about "conquest" afaik that mode is mostly in Jokers head atm. Is a new game-mode the solution to cav being OP in battle???? What are you smoking?

Of course it's mostly in my head atm, I'm not a dev.

You are right about the facts you wrote down there. But in my eyes both cavalry and archers are overnerfed. Cavalry became extremely vulnerable, and the damage is all they got left. Archers have much lower damage and precision than before, but at least they got their mobility left. I would not nerf further, as I think there would be no use in it, and it sould be the last solution, when everything else fails.

And the reason how conquest can make cav (and archers) less OP is the following one: if you have a few infantrymen, and you add some more, then the strength of that group will raise linearly for every infantryman added. But if you have groups of archers or cavalry, and add more of those classes, then the strength will raise exponentially. This is simply because of the fact that both classes are more mobile than infantry and can pick their targets way better than infantry. With a lot of enemy archers you will feel like on Omaha Beach, and with a lot of cavalry every spot on the map will feel like the spawn half a minute after the battle started. Both situations are extremely unadvantageous, but you can't really avoid them.

On the other hand, it is well doable for archers and cavalry to avoid infantry. And due to their limited mobility and flexibility in engagement infantry can't do much about it. And if you can avoid one infantryman, you can avoid all of them. There is no difference in staying away from an infantry cluster of 20 or 30 or 50 players. But there is a difference in being aware of 10, 20 or 30 cav or taking cover and dodging the arrows of 10, 20 or 30 archers.

Summary: the popularity of archers and cavalry makes them OP, which doesn't apply for infantry.

Now we see that the popularity of infantry is sinking, which can also very well be caused by the facts you mentioned. I think an important reason for this development is the fact, that the goal of the game mode is killing the entire enemy team, and infantry is the class which is the least capable of dealing with all other classes. AGI archers, carefull cavalry and especially HAs are more or less invincible for them, while they can very well harm you. This leads to following conclusion:

Infantry is not well suited for battle mode.

With a change to the game mode, which puts infantry into the central role, the popularities of the classes could be shifted, and - as we stated above - because "popularity = OP'ness" applies for some classes, the OPness of some classes will go down.

Conquest mode would be about conquering and holding terrain. This is what cavalry and archers can't really do. The devs already stated they want to change the multiplier system. If they changed it to a way which mostly rewards taking and holding the flag, and less killing other players, a lot of reasons against playing infantry would vanish. Instead it could even be the most rewarding class to play, at least concerning gold and XP. Even the "fighting 2hd heroes" argument would be removed a bit, because you wouldn't need to fight them neccessarily, pushing them back would be enough. Those heroes wouldn't be so present any more, anyway. They are the "hard core" of infantry players, and they kept playing infantry because they love it and/or are so good as infantry. The less capable players have changed to the other classes. But if they come back, the percentage of heroes will go down drastically, and chances of crowding and gangraping them are bigger.

Bottom line: more infantry will debuff the other classes and put the game into the right ("healthier") proportions again.


Conquest is about taking and holding terrain. Cavalry can't engage defending infantry. (Somewhere I wrote a post that cavalry is a unit for defense, not for offense, as awkward as it might sound - think about it). And with the knowledge that taking and holding that one flag will grant MORE rewards in form of gold and XP than killing that one straying enemy over there, infantry will hopefully stay together and concentrate on the flags. Which means it will become increasingly difficult for cavalry players to catch single unaware targets. And the infantry staying together more will make it easier for dedicated pikemen to stay at the flanks and defend the team. Simultaneously things get even more difficult for cavalry, the less there is on the map, because it means there is also less distraction and less unaware targets.

Summary: being cav will be much more difficult => cav "nerfed".

[Thomek]

Well I think his post was epic too, but in other way I presume. Just wanted it to be saved. You know people edit their posts later on when the discussion gets new turns etc

God trying to discredit me out of thin air.. Seriously, reconsider your moderator status before someone else does it for you. If you think it's your job to troll other players that is. Better stay with funny gifs if you are out of arguments.

[Chagan_Arslan]

Cav has always been using this argument.. It won't ever happen. A cav player can just wait until the player gets into a duel then bump or couch or hit him or both. Duels nowadays require 100% concentration, means very little left to concentrate on the sharks waiting to go for the kill, or the random cav riding from around a corner taking the opportunity.

I do understand the lance-angle idea.. It's just that I really don't see it helping much.. We would rely on "honorable" cav going for other cav first to reduce their numbers? Problem is that it makes it even safer for cav to poke at anyone but greatsword users and pike-stylers.

You see you get it all wrong, its not about relying on honorable cav, its about the fact that
- it wasnt that easy to disengage from a fight with lancer and that quality mattered more than quantity
- a single good lancer could engage multiple cav (group) and kill all of them if he was better, numbers didnt matter.
- providing a safety to horse in cav duel thanks to side lancing, encouraged cav to make them. Its shit to get dehorsed in the beggining which happens alot in head on attacks
- and dont forget the fact that most popular horse was arabian (best anti cav horse) and that inf player base wanted more variety for cav (destriers/coursers more of a anti inf horses imo)

 But you have that cav alt so you know what im talking about right ? ;]

[Vibe]

God trying to discredit me out of thin air.. Seriously, reconsider your moderator status before someone else does it for you. If you think it's your job to troll other players that is. Better stay with funny gifs if you are out of arguments.

Thomekrage reemerges because someone doesn't agree with him