Why is 2h faster than Polearms regardless of the speedrating?

[WaltF4]

Do we know if the weapon colliders are different shapes for weapons of unusual geometries (picks, curved swords, etc.)?

[MouthnHoof]

All weapons are treated as if they are a stick with the length of the "reach" parameter coming out of your right palm. The 3D mesh of the weapon in game is independent of the hit detection.

[Kafein]

So that's probably why axes and bardiches seem shorter than they look like. The collision axis must be in the prolongation of the wooden stick, thus negating the range supposedly added by the size of the blade, if I draw an axe like this :

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we see that the distance between the lower right corner and the upper left corner should be the range, and it's not.

[kongxinga]

Not coming in here to whine, just pointing out the forgotten fact that 2handers really do get an animation increase to speed, (you'll have to check the Warband Bug Tracker, I cba at the moment), and polearms really do get a decrease in length (again it's in the bug tracker somewhere). Both things have been noted, and responded too as "working as intended" or "would break the game to fix".

This is the summary. I like how everyone conveniently forgot that 2 handers have a secret speed bonus from their listed speed of +5 due to animations. It is well known quirk of the engine, and is not really up to debate. Just like how polearms get a hidden decrease of 22 length to their stated book length due to grip.

[Gafferjack]

I like how everyone conveniently forgot that 2 handers have a secret speed bonus from their listed speed of +5 due to animations. It is well known quirk of the engine, and is not really up to debate.

I bought a Bamboo Spear and a Shortened Military Scythe (90 speed weapons) and did overheads for 60 seconds with each of them; they had the same number of completed attacks. Afterwards I bought a Two Handed War Axe (95 speed) and did overheads for 60 seconds; it completed more attacks than the two 90 speed weapons. All in-game variables were constant.

[kongxinga]

I bought a Bamboo Spear and a Shortened Military Scythe (90 speed weapons) and did overheads for 60 seconds with each of them; they had the same number of completed attacks. Afterwards I bought a Two Handed War Axe (95 speed) and did overheads for 60 seconds; it completed more attacks than the two 90 speed weapons. All in-game variables were constant.

 Constant if you want them to be. Its hard to test this with overheads by yourself since you might not be releasing it on the same moment. Some hidden bias might creep in since you seem to have a foregone conclusion that values are constant, although the effect is easier to see with side swings.

This is really not up for bringing up personal anecdotes. As kophka pointed out, it is a well known bug/feature. And this bonus does not mean that 2 hand users are less skilled due to reach and speed bonus, because I sincerely believe these bugs/features are known to the balance team, so they make the values with these in mind. Thus all is good as long as you keep these quirks in mind.

That being said, there are a lot of people who are not aware of these bugs/features, as can be seen in this thread. Or in balance threads where we can see people completly forgetting the very obvious -22 length nerf on polearms to justify some broken stats, usually on 2 hands. As in, "my 2 hand may be cheaper, more damaging and quicker, but that polearm is 10 points longer." No it is not, the polearm is 12 points shorter, thus that one item is broken.

[Grey]

but weapon swing speed control animation speed of the RIGHT HAND

So polearms have much faster speeds than those shown, and the 2h also have this, but I think both 2h and polearms need a huge speed nerf, at least the 2h longer than Longsword. Historically, Longsword was the most effecient and best of all swords used in medieval combat. Note that historically, the longsword is anything sword longer than a broadsword but short enough that it could still be used in 1h if nescesary.

Realistically, the swing speeds listed for polearms and 2h is a joke. Physics of weapon length applied to the speed of the hand have the weapon "tips" travelling muchmuch faster.

There is limited options now to make weapons act like their models, since the ARE all just stick shaped hit meshes. Giving axes and bardiches their blades would make them deadly, but also all "axes" would need a much lower blunt dmg mesh for all hit with the staff of the weapon....2h swords, at least the longest ones, are currently swung at wrist breaking speed aswell, add WPF boni in there....

[Gafferjack]

Constant if you want them to be. Its hard to test this with overheads by yourself since you might not be releasing it on the same moment. Some hidden bias might creep in since you seem to have a foregone conclusion that values are constant, although the effect is easier to see with side swings.

That's because the in-game values were constant. (same AGI, same WPF, same STR, same armor on, same weather, same everything.) It's not terribly difficult to test whether or not a particular weapon speed is faster than another, just map a key to the attack function; if you're curious about my times, they were 50 attacks for the 90 speed weapons and 53.5 attacks for the 95 speed two-hander that I used. Now if the "two-handers get +5 speed from animations" theory was correct, wouldn't the 90-speed two-handed weapon be faster than the 90 speed polearm? Or are you saying that it doesn't affect overheads?

This is really not up for bringing up personal anecdotes. As kophka pointed out, it is a well known bug/feature.

Just like one point of Agility giving +0.5% increased attack speed, that was a well-known feature; except it was completely false. You can even look in the bug tracker where they fixed the tooltip.

That being said, there are a lot of people who are not aware of these bugs/features, as can be seen in this thread. Or in balance threads where we can see people completly forgetting the very obvious -22 length nerf on polearms to justify some broken stats, usually on 2 hands.

It's always been my understanding that there's no 'master penalty' for polearms just because of how it's gripped; the weapon length penalty (or bonus, in the case of the polearm thrust) is specific to the animation.

Edit: Fixed typo.
Second Edit: After using a Maul and War Axe (86 speed weapons) in each attack direction for 60 seconds, three times for consistency, I came up with: 48 attacks in each direction, every time.

[Sean_Drew]

I find it strange that I can out spam people on Nanna archer with a 2h (0 WPF) it takes 2-3 hits to kill someone with my longsword and 5-6 arrows (not headshots) to do the same job and I am a archer a agi archer with low PD but still... its strange

Thats right .... i kill people with my 2h axe , with 0 wpf and power strike 1 in 2 hits , but my strong bow needs more hits even with 9 ( ! ) Power Draw and 124 archery. That´s strange ... i thought about throwing the bow away and run around as 2h with 0 wpf ;-) No .... i don´t , but it´s  a little fit frustrating , that 2h with 0 wpf is equal to bow with 9 power draw and 124 wpf.

[Thucydides]

but weapon swing speed control animation speed of the RIGHT HAND

So polearms have much faster speeds than those shown, and the 2h also have this, but I think both 2h and polearms need a huge speed nerf, at least the 2h longer than Longsword. Historically, Longsword was the most effecient and best of all swords used in medieval combat. Note that historically, the longsword is anything sword longer than a broadsword but short enough that it could still be used in 1h if nescesary.

Realistically, the swing speeds listed for polearms and 2h is a joke. Physics of weapon length applied to the speed of the hand have the weapon "tips" travelling muchmuch faster.

There is limited options now to make weapons act like their models, since the ARE all just stick shaped hit meshes. Giving axes and bardiches their blades would make them deadly, but also all "axes" would need a much lower blunt dmg mesh for all hit with the staff of the weapon....2h swords, at least the longest ones, are currently swung at wrist breaking speed aswell, add WPF boni in there....

the whole point of this thread is to show that polearms are actually SLOWER than the speed listed.

One handers actually have weapons that equal the length of some high end polearms because of the stab animation. They are also quite faster. That being said, one handers are fairly balanced compared to the 2h/polearm speed difference. If you nerf 2h and polearm anymore, all you'll see would be shielders and range.

[kongxinga]

That's because the in-game values were constant. (same AGI, same WPF, same STR, same armor on, same weather, same everything.) It's not terribly difficult to test whether or not a particular weapon speed is faster than another, just map a key to the attack function; if you're curious about my times, they were 50 attacks for the 90 speed weapons and 53.5 attacks for the 95 speed two-hander that I used. Now if the "two-handers get +5 speed from animations" theory was correct, wouldn't the 90-speed two-handed weapon be faster than the 90 speed polearm? Or are you saying that it doesn't affect overheads?

Just like one point of Agility giving +0.5% increased attack speed, that was a well-known feature; except it was completely false. You can even look in the bug tracker where they fixed the tooltip.

It's always been my understanding that there's no 'master penalty' for polearms just because of how it's gripped; the weapon length penalty (or bonus, in the case of the polearm thrust) is specific to the animation.

Edit: Fixed typo.
Second Edit: After using a Maul and War Axe (86 speed weapons) in each attack direction for 60 seconds, three times for consistency, I came up with: 48 attacks in each direction, every time.

So are you saying, sometime recently this +5 stealth speed bonus to 2h was removed? Testing speeds is a lot harder, since the whole spinning mouse thingy may have an effect afaik.

Secondly, as much as I would prefer WYSIWYYG, the stats are definately not WYSIWYG like you are claiming (constants are consistent across classes). An easier and more visible test would be the effective length of the spear versus the spiked shaft. On paper the spear has 130 (iirc) length with the spiked staff 110. So on paper the spear should out range the staff. But try overhanding both weapons with a partner as a target, and the spiked staff will hit first (as effective spear length is -22 for 108). Length is easier to test. If only that old forum post did not disappear, because it was proven, confirmed without a doubt that 2 h had hidden speed bonus. Testing speed is a lot harder than how many attacks per minute.

Yet then, as is now, there were 2 hand users jumping in to defend their weapon, as if a discussion of game mechanics is an attack on their class. Someone would have to shift through all that mess to see if this was fixed. I won't be overly surprised if this was fixed, as the devs have done some sneaky fixes/nerfs in the past before.

[Gafferjack]

So are you saying, sometime recently this +5 stealth speed bonus to 2h was removed?

Yes; or it never existed in the first place.

Testing speeds is a lot harder, since the whole spinning mouse thingy may have an effect afaik.

If you're talking about spinslashing, I don't see how that has anything to do with the listed speed stat of a weapon; any weapon that has a left-to-right or right-to-left swing can take advantage of it.

Secondly, as much as I would prefer WYSIWYYG, the stats are definately not WYSIWYG like you are claiming (constants are consistent across classes).

I was only implying this for weapon speed; I'm aware that weapons have different lengths based on their animation. I'd also like to note that the type of weapon you're using is irrelevant for determining their actual length, the only thing that matters is the animation. See the flamberge for an example (3/4 of its attacks use polearm animations).

Testing speed is a lot harder than how many attacks per minute.

The only thing that I could think of that wouldn't be reflected in total attacks per minute would be the time needed to swing a weapon to center versus the time needed to spam another attack. If you had something else in mind, please explain.

If only that old forum post did not disappear, because it was proven, confirmed without a doubt that 2 h had hidden speed bonus.

This is the only thread like that I've been able to find that is similar to what you're talking about; I've never personally seen any definitive testing on either forum explaining that two-handed animations had a hidden speed bonus. The thread also lists the Native weapon animation lengths under Myth #7.