Author Topic: Archery: baffs and narfs!  (Read 3265 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Cup1d

  • Count
  • *****
  • Renown: 167
  • Infamy: 54
  • cRPG Player
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Mercs
Re: Archery: baffs and narfs!
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2012, 09:06:18 pm »
0
give me old arrow speed and remove silly slot system. Then you can nerf weight of an arrows and bows, and even add -2 penalty to overall damage output.

Offline Miwiw

  • King
  • **********
  • Renown: 1267
  • Infamy: 525
  • cRPG Player Sir White Knight A Gentleman and a Scholar
    • View Profile
  • Faction: HRE
  • Game nicks: Miwiw
Re: Archery: baffs and narfs!
« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2012, 09:07:16 pm »
0
No, with native arrow speed you need at least 90 arrows for a round :P
Miwiw_HRE - Two Handed
Trade with me

Offline Arrowblood

  • Duke
  • *******
  • Renown: 508
  • Infamy: 112
  • cRPG Player
    • View Profile
  • Faction: The Mercenaries
  • Game nicks: Merc_Arrowblood
Re: Archery: baffs and narfs!
« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2012, 10:31:02 pm »
0
And  now tell the world Ban_Kulin, is archery easy with a longbow on the open field ?

Offline Arrowblood

  • Duke
  • *******
  • Renown: 508
  • Infamy: 112
  • cRPG Player
    • View Profile
  • Faction: The Mercenaries
  • Game nicks: Merc_Arrowblood
Re: Archery: baffs and narfs!
« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2012, 01:16:21 pm »
0
That was what i wanted to hear.

Offline The_Bloody_Nine

  • Marshall
  • ********
  • Renown: 946
  • Infamy: 108
  • cRPG Player Sir White Bishop A Gentleman and a Scholar
  • "I am still alive"
    • View Profile
Re: Archery: baffs and narfs!
« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2012, 02:03:52 pm »
0
Pikes lost it, so I don't see why arrows should keep it.
As I see it Pikes (and all poles) lost it because it gave the piker himself a free second hit. Archers don't get that hit for themselves but only for teammates.

Offline Leshma

  • Kickstarter Addict
  • King
  • **********
  • Renown: 1185
  • Infamy: 1424
  • cRPG Player Sir White Rook A Gentleman and a Scholar
  • VOTE 2024
    • View Profile
Re: Archery: baffs and narfs!
« Reply #20 on: June 30, 2012, 02:33:07 pm »
0
Depends on an archer. They get that second hit if they use fast (horn) bow.

Offline Gurnisson

  • King
  • **********
  • Renown: 1750
  • Infamy: 362
  • cRPG Player Sir Black Bishop A Gentleman and a Scholar
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Nordmen
  • Game nicks: SeaRaider_Gurnisson
Re: Archery: baffs and narfs!
« Reply #21 on: June 30, 2012, 02:36:57 pm »
+2
As I see it Pikes (and all poles) lost it because it gave the piker himself a free second hit. Archers don't get that hit for themselves but only for teammates.

I've never double-hit anyone with 'pike', that's the reason I didn't mind polestagger on them. I hated hafted blades and poleaxes getting two hits on me for one mistake, but getting staggered by a support weapon in a mass, when the piker himself couldn't double-hit me was no big hassle.
I voted Gurnisson cause of his fucking bendy pike, I swear noone can roflcopter stab like he can.

Offline Adamar

  • He who doesn't want to be labelled
  • Earl
  • ******
  • Renown: 422
  • Infamy: 319
  • cRPG Player
    • View Profile
Re: Archery: baffs and narfs!
« Reply #22 on: July 01, 2012, 02:02:20 am »
0
Depends on an archer. They get that second hit if they use fast (horn) bow.

I dont think even the fastest bow can achieve that.

Offline Leshma

  • Kickstarter Addict
  • King
  • **********
  • Renown: 1974
  • Infamy: 2752
  • cRPG Player Sir White Rook A Gentleman and a Scholar
  • VOTE 2024
    • View Profile
Re: Archery: baffs and narfs!
« Reply #23 on: July 01, 2012, 02:18:43 am »
0
Not every arrow stun is the same. Some are especially nasty. Depends on speed bonus.

Offline Kafein

  • King
  • **********
  • Renown: 2203
  • Infamy: 808
  • cRPG Player Sir White Rook A Gentleman and a Scholar
    • View Profile
Re: Archery: baffs and narfs!
« Reply #24 on: July 01, 2012, 10:43:49 am »
0
Still interrupts a swing like all melee hits. It just doesn't have the "stagger" effect. Maybe I wasn't clear enough - don't want it to be "it doesn't even interrupt my swing anymore".

Arrows cause the longest stagger in the game if we don't count knockdown effects.

Also, Leshma forgot the central element of the archery rebalance. Smoothing the effect of wpf to increase the stats of low wpf archers and decrease that of high wpf archers compared to current values. I think archery wpf should work like melee wpf, 120 being enough to do ok. That would encourage hybrids, especially if high wpf levels have more diminishing returns.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2012, 10:46:51 am by Kafein »

Offline Vibe

  • Vibrator
  • King
  • **********
  • Renown: 2528
  • Infamy: 615
  • cRPG Player Madam White Queen A Gentleman and a Scholar
    • View Profile
Re: Archery: baffs and narfs!
« Reply #25 on: July 01, 2012, 11:40:21 am »
+1
Tbh, balance looms so bows get +damage and arrows +count or something so that you don't have to spend 6 loom points to actually hurt someone.

Take away archer kiting.

Increase archer melee efficiency by a bit.

Should work

Offline Bulzur

  • Earl
  • ******
  • Renown: 465
  • Infamy: 102
  • cRPG Player A Gentleman and a Scholar
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Caravan Guild.
  • Game nicks: Guard_Bulzur
Re: Archery: baffs and narfs!
« Reply #26 on: July 01, 2012, 02:14:14 pm »
0

Buffs:

+ archers can wear up to 15 heavy armor (allows them to wear those beatiful new armors and helmets) Gladly accepted. But helmets x3.
+ buff to all bows +2 damage    Why ?
+ buff to all arrows +1 damage (even bodkins)  Why ?
+ buff to weapons they can choose from (more 1 slot and 0 slot weapons please)
(optional) some way to give them a bit of free PS  Not needed.
+ 5 to bow speed when masterworked (now is +3)  So a +2 bow speed for NORMAL bow ? Or a final +5 after three heirlooms ?
+ 5 to missile speed when masterworked (now is +3) So a +2 missile speed for NORMAL bow ? Or a final +5 after three heirlooms ?
+ more arrows when loomed to +3 (bodkins +5 instead of current +2, tatar +6 instead dof +2, barbed +8, arrows +10) Not specially needed. But since you want to increase the weight of the quivers, it's indeed needed. Wil buff the 2 slot bows who used one quiver and 1 slot weapon, since the 1 slot horn bow usually never runs out of 2 quivers.

We have way too many thrower and xbow hybrids and almost all archers are pure. This will help archer hybrids a bit. Shooting all the time is boring, if you give dedicated twohanders a change to hybrid with archery we might consider it. It's better than pure 2h anyway.

Narfs:

- turnspeed nerf   Acceptable.
- bye bye arrow stun    Needs tweaking.
- 1 less damage for masterwork bows (+2 modifier)  Acceptable.
- 1 less damage for masterwork arrows - those who gain bonus (+1 modifier)  Acceptable.
- 50% heavier bows, 30% heavier arrows    Acceptable.
Death to kiting!



The problem i see here is mainly the accuracy, wich will drop, as Gurnisson said already.
Also, the arrow stun is long enough to give a melee who was blocking, the time to realize his opponent was hit by an arrow and then suddenly release an attack.

I wouldn't mind if the extra stun timer was removed for infantry. But we need it against cavalry, else they can still effectively lance people. Also... my build is a low damage stagger build, with an horn bow. Basically, with this change, you just want archers to be more effectives than supports. And then what's the point of using an horn bow over a rusbow ?

The +5 bow speed is a bigger buff for longbow, than it is for all others. So it's a small nerf for the bow still used with the more initial bow speed : aka, the 4 PD Tatar bow, then the 5 PD horn bow.

Horn bow user didn't care much about damage, but was all about staggering, accuracy  and spamming. If you give the same number to ALL bows, then it will break the little balance we have between bows.


Finally, in all this, it's just a BIG buff for HA :
-more damage
-more missile and bow speed
-don't care about the weight of the bow and arrows, BUT can hunt more effectively SLOWER foot archers.
-No arrow stun, but still bump stun. And the arrow damage will still stagger the target before bumping it, so no problem.
-less accuracy : doesn't matter for point blank shots.
-Turnspeed nerf : there's the horse's turnspeed already, so it's not an important matter.



And i don't think HA needs any buffs. The simple fact that they can use bodkin arrows makes them already dangerous enough. And they don't have to worry about tunnel vision, since they're always on the moved, and they care less about cavalry since they can dehorsed them effectively.

[14:36] <@chadz> when you login there is a message "your life as horse archer was too depressing for you. you decided to commit suicide. please create a new char"
[19:32] <@chadz> if(dave_ukr_is_in_server) then rain_chance = 98%;

Offline Leshma

  • Kickstarter Addict
  • King
  • **********
  • Renown: 1898
  • Infamy: 702
  • cRPG Player Sir White Rook A Gentleman and a Scholar
  • VOTE 2024
    • View Profile
Re: Archery: baffs and narfs!
« Reply #27 on: July 01, 2012, 11:27:31 pm »
0
Buffs:

+ archers can wear up to 15 heavy armor (allows them to wear those beatiful new armors and helmets) Gladly accepted. But helmets x3.

(click to show/hide)

This is my goal. What's the problem? Too much armor? With my 6 PS I will still 2 hit these guys, they have only 53 HP and 48 armor isn't much. Currently I need two hits for most archers. But they will survive longer in ranged duels and xbowmen won't one hit them as often (xbow is easy mode compared to archery).

Quote
+ buff to all bows +2 damage    Why ?

Difference between loomed archers and those who have no looms is vast. This is my attempt to reduce that difference by giving regular bows more damage.


Quote
+ buff to all arrows +1 damage (even bodkins)  Why ?

See above.

Quote
+ buff to weapons they can choose from (more 1 slot and 0 slot weapons please)
(optional) some way to give them a bit of free PS  Not needed.

I think it's needed. 18/21 archers at level 30 can spare only 3 PS which works good with mace. But mace is boring. Archers should be able to use more weapons, especially if they are going to carry two stack of arrows which will make them a lot slower. More diversity won't hurt anyone.

Quote
+ 5 to bow speed when masterworked (now is +3)  So a +2 bow speed for NORMAL bow ? Or a final +5 after three heirlooms ?

Regular bows will get more damage. If you want your arrows to have less drop and to be able to shoot faster, you'll need loomed bow. Plus five in both categories for masterwork bows, instead of current plus 3.

Quote
+ 5 to missile speed when masterworked (now is +3) So a +2 missile speed for NORMAL bow ? Or a final +5 after three heirlooms ?

See above.


Quote
+ more arrows when loomed to +3 (bodkins +5 instead of current +2, tatar +6 instead dof +2, barbed +8, arrows +10) Not specially needed. But since you want to increase the weight of the quivers, it's indeed needed. Wil buff the 2 slot bows who used one quiver and 1 slot weapon, since the 1 slot horn bow usually never runs out of 2 quivers.

Currently, archers only shoot at targets who are at medium distance. With higher missile speed, there will be less drop and archers will be able to cover bigger area. Also, increase in arrow count will result in more archers who carry only one quiver, which means there will be more archers carrying rus/long bow and 1 slot weapon.

Narfs:

- turnspeed nerf   Acceptable.
- bye bye arrow stun    Needs tweaking.
- 1 less damage for masterwork bows (+2 modifier)  Acceptable.
- 1 less damage for masterwork arrows - those who gain bonus (+1 modifier)  Acceptable.
- 50% heavier bows, 30% heavier arrows    Acceptable.

Quote
The problem i see here is mainly the accuracy, wich will drop, as Gurnisson said already.
Also, the arrow stun is long enough to give a melee who was blocking, the time to realize his opponent was hit by an arrow and then suddenly release an attack.

Accuracy is the same thing as weapon speed. It's relative. Some arrows that should hit often miss, some that should miss targets hit them in the head... Also if you hold your shot you're losing accuracy, yet many archers get more hits this way than shooting in burst mode.

Accuracy won't suffer much because of few more points of damage. I wouldn't buff it because of that. I'm not trying to bring back snipers to cRPG, there are xbows for that. I want to see proper longbowmen who have lots of arrows and are able cover certain area with their fire. They don't need accuracy for that.

Quote
I wouldn't mind if the extra stun timer was removed for infantry. But we need it against cavalry, else they can still effectively lance people. Also... my build is a low damage stagger build, with an horn bow. Basically, with this change, you just want archers to be more effectives than supports. And then what's the point of using an horn bow over a rusbow ?

With all these buffs, archers will be a lot stronger against cavalry. Also, archers aren't supposed to stay in the open, unprotected. Pikemen should shield them from cavalry (we don't have deployable stakes, unfortunately). Yeah, I know it's rare sight in cRPG but you shouldn't make changes based on how much skill average joe has (that's console way).

Quote
The +5 bow speed is a bigger buff for longbow, than it is for all others. So it's a small nerf for the bow still used with the more initial bow speed : aka, the 4 PD Tatar bow, then the 5 PD horn bow.

Works as intended. Longbow kinda suck atm, if you haven't noticed. It's one of the few expensive weapons that's not good enough for it's price (Elegant Poleaxe also comes to mind). Longbow deserves a buff.

Quote
Horn bow user didn't care much about damage, but was all about staggering, accuracy  and spamming. If you give the same number to ALL bows, then it will break the little balance we have between bows.

Maybe you should ask bagge thing or two about horn bow. Bows aren't balanced atm because rus and horn bow are too good and other bows are kinda crap. While low tier bows shouldn't be anything special, bows like longbow and Yumi should be buffed. Horn bow users doesn't care much about damage delivered in one shot, they are care about dps.

Quote
Finally, in all this, it's just a BIG buff for HA :
-more damage
-more missile and bow speed
-don't care about the weight of the bow and arrows, BUT can hunt more effectively SLOWER foot archers.
-No arrow stun, but still bump stun. And the arrow damage will still stagger the target before bumping it, so no problem.
-less accuracy : doesn't matter for point blank shots.
-Turnspeed nerf : there's the horse's turnspeed already, so it's not an important matter.

And i don't think HA needs any buffs. The simple fact that they can use bodkin arrows makes them already dangerous enough. And they don't have to worry about tunnel vision, since they're always on the moved, and they care less about cavalry since they can dehorsed them effectively.

Again, works as intended. If you think that HA is OP maybe you should roll one. Very few players are good with HA and most of them have high level builds. Horse archers are supposed to take foot archers easily. Against them and other cavalry they shine. Against everything else they suck, yes they are annoying but that's it.

Offline Leshma

  • Kickstarter Addict
  • King
  • **********
  • Renown: 1251
  • Infamy: 1180
  • cRPG Player Sir White Rook A Gentleman and a Scholar
  • VOTE 2024
    • View Profile
Re: Archery: baffs and narfs!
« Reply #28 on: July 01, 2012, 11:31:25 pm »
0
Also, Leshma forgot the central element of the archery rebalance. Smoothing the effect of wpf to increase the stats of low wpf archers and decrease that of high wpf archers compared to current values. I think archery wpf should work like melee wpf, 120 being enough to do ok. That would encourage hybrids, especially if high wpf levels have more diminishing returns.

chadz already said they are thinking about it. I just hope they won't make 220 wpf spammers and archers possible, like in the old cRPG. Wpf cap is good idea (Thomek is against it so it must be good idea), players with high WM just need more points to spend in different categories and those who have no WM shouldn't get anything for free.

120 is very low, both for melee and archery. No one thinks about active wpf. 160 should be the limit, things get a bit out of control above that (especially for archers).

Btw. I think I'm going to stop suggesting things. First reason is that people are probably annoyed since I'm making threads here quite frequently. Second reason is that I'm probably putting more effort and thought into balancing issues than actual balancers of this mod.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2012, 11:34:48 pm by Leshma »

Offline Tydeus

  • King
  • **********
  • Renown: 1422
  • Infamy: 351
  • cRPG Player A Gentleman and a Scholar
  • Item re-unbalance guy
    • View Profile
  • Game nicks: Tydeus
  • IRC nick: Tydeus
Re: Archery: baffs and narfs!
« Reply #29 on: July 02, 2012, 02:59:48 pm »
0
Second reason is that I'm probably putting more effort and thought into balancing issues than actual balancers of this mod.
Obviously. We don't even have an item balance team, just an item unbalance one.
chadz> i wouldnt mind seeing some penis on my character