Archery: baffs and narfs!

[Leshma]

Buffs:

+ archers can wear up to 15 heavy armor (allows them to wear those beatiful new armors and helmets)
+ buff to all bows +2 damage
+ buff to all arrows +1 damage (even bodkins)
+ buff to weapons they can choose from (more 1 slot and 0 slot weapons please)
(optional) some way to give them a bit of free PS
+ 5 to bow speed when masterworked (now is +3)
+ 5 to missile speed when masterworked (now is +3)
+ more arrows when loomed to +3 (bodkins +5 instead of current +2, tatar +6 instead dof +2, barbed +8, arrows +10)

We have way too many thrower and xbow hybrids and almost all archers are pure. This will help archer hybrids a bit. Shooting all the time is boring, if you give dedicated twohanders a change to hybrid with archery we might consider it. It's better than pure 2h anyway.

Narfs:

- turnspeed nerf
- bye bye arrow stun
- 1 less damage for masterwork bows (+2 modifier)
- 1 less damage for masterwork arrows - those who gain bonus (+1 modifier)
- 50% heavier bows, 30% heavier arrows


Death to kiting!

Just an example, how MW Longbow looks like atm:

Speed            43   
Thrust (cut)    33
Missile speed    43
Accuracy           101
Weight            1,7

How will look like after this changes:

Speed            45   
Thrust (cut)    35
Missile speed    45
Accuracy           101
Weight            2.5

+3 Bodkin arrows atm:

Large Bad of Bodkin Arrows
weapon length: 91
weight: 3
weapon length: 91
max ammo: 17
thrust damage: 0 pierce
slots: 1

After these changes:

Large BagBodkin Arrows
weapon length: 91
weight: 4
weapon length: 91
max ammo: 20
thrust damage: 1 pierce
slots: 1

I'm mainly interested what archers think of this. Are they willing to lose ability to kite (they'll found a new way but it won't be effective as currently kiting is)? In return they'll get some awesome bonuses?

Opinion of archer haters isn't important because they won't be satisfied with anything less than archery being removed from cRPG.

I think that archery is weak and that kiting is a lame way of getting kill. So, I'm offering solution which is in a way going back to the roots but not nearly as OP archery was back in the days.

Shield will be mandatory after this nerf. Hybrid polearmer/hoplites can be solution. Twohanders will have to carry a shield (if you don't want it's your problem). Also this will be indirect nerf to cav so they'll be taken care of as well.

Archers what do you think, is kiting that sweet or you're willing to change the way you play in return for some good stuff?

[CrazyCracka420]

agree with all except the need for more 1slot weapons (maybe 0 slot because I don't know).  There's a shit ton of 1 slots in the game already.  if you're talking about 2h's with 1 slot, i don't think there should even be any 2h WPF's that use 1 slot weapons...just the fact you can drop the (already good) 2h mace, and pick up a great sword, is a huge advantage over people who use 1h 1slot weapons.

[bruce]

Would be a shame to lose the arrow stun completely mostly because of it's impact in supporting teammates in melee (perhaps same duration as stun on hit?), but other than that, reasonably well thought out.

I would add, increasing the bump range of shield by a bit.

[Gurnisson]

Would be a shame to lose the arrow stun completely mostly because of it's impact in supporting teammates in melee

Pikes lost it, so I don't see why arrows should keep it.

[bruce]

Still interrupts a swing like all melee hits. It just doesn't have the "stagger" effect. Maybe I wasn't clear enough - don't want it to be "it doesn't even interrupt my swing anymore".

[Arrowblood]

Longbow is 34 cut atm.

[Gurnisson]

Still interrupts a swing like all melee hits. It just doesn't have the "stagger" effect. Maybe I wasn't clear enough - don't want it to be "it doesn't even interrupt my swing anymore".

Oh, I don't want that either. Was talking about the longer stagger.

[Leshma]

Longbow is 34 cut atm.

Will fix that.

[Adamar]

Archery without stun will look pretty dumb, and the heavier arrows\bow thing will draw archers away from armor more. an archer that can't run at least as much as inf will be left behind and get killed.

The solution is way simpler, I'll repeat myself again:
Just considerably lower the accuracy penalty from armor, with decent armor on archers can't kite properly, but can instead fight in melee. Dedicated meleers would always have the advantage anyway, both because of the build and the slot system wont allow lite archers to bring 2 slot weapons to the battlefield.

[Leshma]

Archery without stun will look pretty dumb, and the heavier arrows\bow thing will draw archers away from armor more. an archer that can't run at least as much as inf will be left behind and get killed.

MW Rus bow - 2.3 weight
Large bag of bodkins - 4 weight
Sidearm - 1-1.5 weight

Total armor weight - 13-15 (they can't go beyond that without losing wpf)

That's comparable with most infantry. If we take into consideration that average ath is 6, they will be slightly slower than polearmer with 6 ath. And comparable with shielders with 6 ath and those aren't slow. That's enough to run away, unless you want to run in the last moment and keep kiting.

If you want to carry two stacks of arrows you'll be slowe but you'll also have between 20-60+ arrows to shoot. Combined with horn bow build 15/24 you'll be decently fast despite the weight you're carrying.

But if you want mw rus bow + 40 bodkins and no proper sidearm, all with 21/18 or some high pd builds I'm arfraid that you'll be really slow. In that case you'll have to rely on your teammates or to find a good cover and then start releasing arrows.

[Miwiw]

I prefer having arrow stun over any of your "buffs".

[Leshma]

These are serious buffs and I'm not talking about damage. Those who played archery year and a half ago know what I've buffed.

[Leshma]

agree with all except the need for more 1slot weapons (maybe 0 slot because I don't know).  There's a shit ton of 1 slots in the game already.  if you're talking about 2h's with 1 slot, i don't think there should even be any 2h WPF's that use 1 slot weapons...just the fact you can drop the (already good) 2h mace, and pick up a great sword, is a huge advantage over people who use 1h 1slot weapons.

I wasn't talking about greatswords. Shorter twohanders like Bastard sword, maybe even Heavy Bastard sword and longsword (in their case price increase should follow 1 slot status). For polearms things like all staffs and maybe those shorter spears. But that isn't that much of a big deal because those are cut weapons and archers will still chose 2h mace. According to Kafein, lenght of a weapon affects archery so they won't choose long weapons because of that.

Zero slots weapons should be those cheap one handed weapons with adition of something really damaging but short like Italian Falchion. Don't worry about them having such fast and damaging sword. With these changes, those who choose 0 slot weapon will carry two stacks of arrows and that will make them really slow.

[[ptx]]

Buffing damage decreases accuracy.

[Leshma]

Because they need looms to be effective. Changes I made nerfed damage on loomed bows and arrows and buffed for non-loomed. In the end, loomed bows arrows are buffed a bit. Regular bows and arrows are noticeably buffed.