Shields don't affect swing speed.

[Bobthehero]

You suck grey get out of here

[rustyspoon]

If shielders are OP why do they rarley top the leader boards?

Even though we've gotten way off topic, I do have to answer this one.

The simple answer is most of the best players don't play shielder because they think it's easy mode. For example, back when Dan_ATS was playing a shielder he was topping the leader boards. Most of the better players don't play shielder because they prefer the challenge of manual blocking.

I'm also not saying that shielders are OP. I'm more saying there's a big problem with the huge, unbreakable shields as there is no negative for using one.

[Grey]

Kalam, shields SHOULD NOT protect from angled attacks. Also, its not hard coded, for 2 days after last patch the forcefields were almost gone, then they got rebuffed. I forget who it is, but one of the "balance testers" only uses shields and raged SO much he got the forcefields put back on.

Shields should be shields: You can build a wall with your mates, and stop arrows, trying to use one in melee should instantly get you killed. Hollywood has A LOT to answer for, as it has made people believe shields were used in mixed melee combat:

THEY NEVER WHERE! Shields were formation weapons, BUCKLERS wre used in combat but NEVER shields.

This said, I would like shields to be buffed in some respects: Boardshield on your back, turn around to reload your crossbow, safe from behind.....shield at "rest" should still block melee..... and more stuff I cba to mention now as Im overdue at the dinnertab

[Tears of Destiny]

Last I checked Dan retired back into a shielder.

[IG_Saint]

One of the more interesting suggestions I read about a way to change shields was in an old taleworlds thread. The idea was to remove the melee forcefield from shields. And by that I don't mean just the 180 degrees coverage, but also the fact that you can't hit under a shield with a melee weapon. If hitting the legs of a shield user is a possibility it means the shield user has to actually worry about his shield positioning instead of just keeping it at chest height. This would require alot of rebalancing though, so I wonder if it's worth it. Overal the balance seems pretty ok.

[Noble Crassius]

If shielders are OP why do they rarley top the leader boards?

Bahaha they do, alot!
I just retired from my shielder into a 2hander. On the siege (I know but still kinda relevant) I could easily go 32-10 a round now as a 2hander I usually roll a little better than 1-1. My numbers speak to meself quite easily at least for me shield = easy mode.

[Keshian]

If shielders are OP why do they rarley top the leader boards?
The rason you get pissed off is because most of the remaining shielders CAN play to their style, much like Murmillius Prime for polearms and Bjord for 2h. Crappy shileders say "forget that" and go off to get a nice spammy polearm or 2h sword
I admit that the huscarl needs to be nerfed which is why I never use it
But nearly all the 2h and polearm weapons can out range a 1h
Even more of the time a shielder simply gets out spammed. I find it a lot easier to break a spammers chain with no-shield than with a shield. Nerfing all shield speeds would just increase this
I play as a shielder and I seriously don't think they are OP (not counting the huscarl shield and sidesword)
And what's wrong with the people who want to put 10 points into shield? It's their play style. If someone tried to stop you doing your 18/18 build because you played well/had fun with it you'd get pissed off!

Actually they almost always top the leaderboards.  Just look for someone with a huscarl and a pick or a heater shield and a sidesword and check their name and they are probably in the top 3.  The only people I ever see get over 10:1 k/ds on a map are always shielders with a rare cavalry guy thrown in.  Its because they have an entire set of extra armor and hit points and even if that shield "dies" they can pick up another.  The fact that it hardly slows you down athletically and with swing speed is kind of silly, you shouldn't be able to swing faster and harder with 1 hand a weapon than with the full force of 2 hands, golf would become dominated by one-armed men otherwise.

[Grey]

SO STOP USING THEM WHEN TRYING TO BALANCE THE BLOODY GAME

Erm before you rage, read. Everything you have mentioned, I have mentioned first, and that you use shields and dont find them easymode reflects on your skill.

Any skilled shielder tops the leaderboard, every round, every map. There are no disadvantages to shields. I would like to see disadvantages.

One of the more interesting suggestions I read about a way to change shields was in an old taleworlds thread. The idea was to remove the melee forcefield from shields. And by that I don't mean just the 180 degrees coverage, but also the fact that you can't hit under a shield with a melee weapon. If hitting the legs of a shield user is a possibility it means the shield user has to actually worry about his shield positioning instead of just keeping it at chest height. This would require alot of rebalancing though, so I wonder if it's worth it. Overal the balance seems pretty ok.

THIS. That holding mouse2 and quickly spinning in circles allows invulnerabilty is fail. Its fucking epicly fail.


As you raged Richrich, shields should block melee at rest, YES, I said that. Im glad you agree. But they should all be limited to the size of the shield. There should be no bonus from stacking 10 shieldskill, I dont get a 3 foot wide arrow that I can miss with if I stack POWERDRAW, why should shields become huge invisible "Personal Shields" from Star Wars?

Sure people should be able to choose their style, but this style is unfair. So, as you say, lets balance the game, and not base it off real life either. BUT LES BALANCE IT. Right now, shielding is what you do if you have no choice, cause in every other style u get raped. It needs to be hard like the other styles....

[Bobthehero]

I rape easily with a 1 hander and no shield, its a lot easier without a shield, besides, shields still explode quite fast.

[Formless]

First of all Wow, just WOW.  I find it hard to believe that there are so many people willing to bitch about shielders with a straight face.  You are kidding right? 

Its a fact that people tend to gravitate towards maximum value, toward the best deal.  If shielders were OP as so many of you are suggesting, Shielders would be the dominantly played class in crpg.  Last time I checked there are not that many Shielders around.  Also last time Gorath posted server stats, 2 handers were the main melee killers followed closely by polearms with shielders a distant third. 

Shielders are the weakest melee class in all of Crpg, because of two disadvantages. 

1.)  Killing power
2.)  Range


1.)  No other class does so little damage per swing as a shielder, also no other class bounces off armour as much as a shielder.  With a PS of 7 and a top tier weapon, I still get whiffs off armour.  Furthermore there are no 1 hand weapons that can 1 shot kill an enemy.  The closes you get is the warhammer or the pick and even with an str build you still need at least 2 hits and both of these weapons are laughably short, anyone with decent agility can avoid a hit from those. 

2.)  Which brings me to range.  Shielders have the shortest weapons in crpg, this does not sound like a big deal till you go out there and try it.  Shielders always have to be moving forward to catch up to people, meaning the competition controls the pace of the fight.  Also, because of the short range an agility 2 hander or a polearm wielder can fight on the far range of their weapon and never come in rage of a shielders weapon.  As an example, it takes about 6 swings of an axe to take out a houscarl shield, 2 of those swings will come as a shielder is trying to get close enough to hit his opponent, that means the shielder just lost 33% of his shield before he even got his enemy into fighting range.

Furthermore, no other melee class has the same build restrictions as a shielder.  As an example, Shielders need shields, for most shielders that means at least 4 skill into shield skills.  This automatically means an agility of 12.

I could go on and on, but really.....

Some misconceptions I would like to clear up:

Is blocking easy mode for shielders?  Yes it is.  Does that mean that shielders are easy mode?  No, shielders are not easy mode, the worries as a shielder are different then for a 2 hander.  A 2 hander does not have to worry about timing or range or angles, his main worry is blocking.  Shielders do not worry about blocking instead their head space is taken up with timing, range and angles because of the type of weaponary they use.  It actually took me longer to learn to be a shielder then it took me to learn how to fight 2 hand or polearm.

On shield speed.  Shield speed is a big deal, I can really tell the difference between the heather and the houscarl.  The heater allows you to feint much easier and is more forgiving when you make timing mistakes.  The houscarl is noticeably slower and does not forgive timing mistakes.  If your timing is off a bit you will be able to block return hits with a heather that would simply sneak by the houscarl.  So while swinging speed might not be impacted your recovery time and defense sure are.   

P.S  Most shields suck ass anyway, even the houscarl. 

P.S 2  In real life on a medieval battlefield if you did not use a shield, evolution would quickly take care of you. 

[Bobthehero]

P.S 2  In real life on a medieval battlefield if you did not use a shield, evolution would quickly take care of you.

This, until plate armor showed up

[Noble Crassius]

"A 2 hander does not have to worry about timing or range or angles"
This is where you lost me and discredited your whole argument...or maybe I'm doing it wrong the more experienced 2handers can share some light on this.

"I'm also not saying that shielders are OP. I'm more saying there's a big problem with the huge, unbreakable shields as there is no negative for using one."
Couldn't have said it better myself rusty...Really I tried and got flamed by every shielder alive.

Also I can't take your post serious formless cause even I as a shielder can detect the huge bias behind your posts your just defending your class.

[rustyspoon]

Formless, I'm going to have to refute your points here also. If you are whiffing as a 1 hander I'd say that's more of a footwork problem. If you have good footwork, you won't glance. I've done both str and agi shielders. Never had a problem with either if my footwork was good.

Also, with a str build 1 hander you can 1 shot people ALL THE TIME. Remember, speed bonus is your friend. With a running stab I can reliably one-shot most people. The thing with 1 hander more than any other class is footwork is key.

I also don't think having a short weapon is a big problem when you have an item that lets you block everything every time. ESPECIALLY if using an agi build. With an agi build it's pretty easy to jump in, strike and jump out or just circle around the guy. Sure if you get hit once, you're dead, but you have that giant wooden thing on your arm protecting you.

Also after doing some more testing, shield speed doesn't even seem to matter when blocking. Using a 100 speed shield and a 79 speed shield it took them the same amount of time to move into the block position. I tested it with someone who had shield skill 1 and with shield skill 6. Shield skill doesn't seem to matter on blocking speed either. What is interesting though, is that your shield moves faster depending on whether you are at rest or if you have your weapon drawn back, try it out. Stand still and hit block. Notice how long it takes? Now, draw your weapon back and then hit block. It's noticeably faster.

[chief]

Lol, People think 2h/polearm weapon require skill solely because you need to manual block.

Really? You don't need to block. You have the option to when you're up against someone good, but in the majority of their kills I'm willing to bet that they didn't block any of the victims attacks.. Spectate some of the guys at the top of the scoreboard, you'll see what I mean. You can kill us in less hits (often just 1) and from farther away, let us have one thing in our favor.

Anyone ever watch Burricked?
______________________________________________
On the topic of shielders being OP...that's just a joke. The people getting 30+ kills on siege, never a 1her. In battle, you have a couple of good shielders who top the boards, but not nearly as often as 2hers do. I do however think that the internal balance of shields is fucked up  - huscarl/board/steel shields are significantly more powerful than the lighter 'faster" shields.

[Formless]

"A 2 hander does not have to worry about timing or range or angles"
This is where you lost me and discredited your whole argument...or maybe I'm doing it wrong the more experienced 2handers can share some light on this.

"I'm also not saying that shielders are OP. I'm more saying there's a big problem with the huge, unbreakable shields as there is no negative for using one."
Couldn't have said it better myself rusty...Really I tried and got flamed by every shielder alive.

Also I can't take your post serious formless cause even I as a shielder can detect the huge bias behind your posts your just defending your class.

First off, I do not have a class.  I constantly switch between 2 hander, polearm and shielder  (hence Formless, as in no style).  I have played each class for at least 3 generations.  Next time I retire I am going back to polearm. 

And yes, 2 handers do not have to worry about angles and range as much as a shielders, they still have to think about it, but its not their primary concern.  As a shielder range and angle are very important because of the size of the weapon.  The range of your attack changes depending at what angle you are attacking and if your angle is off the likely hood that you will wiff off armour is high (much higher then in any other class, rusty touched on this when he talked about footwork). 

With a 2 hander you do not have to worry about angles or range, you just swing as soon as the other guy looks to be within hitting distance, because of the size of the weapon the likely hood that you will wiff is small because your sword is so big its fairly hard for you to miss a hit box or to hit it at an angle that it will not register a hit on.  Furthermore because of the size of the weapon you get to attack first and you get to set the range at which the fight will take place.  On top of that in a turning fight you will not have to worry about range or angle with a 2 hander because you weapon is so large, in a turning fight a shielder has to pay attention because of the way he turns and swings will determine the range of his weapon or whether or not he hits his opponent (back to angles and range).  So as a shielder you change one set of problems for the other, you no longer have to worry as much about blocking, but you exchange that set of problems for a series of more subtle problems of timing, range and angles.  As a 2 hander you do not have to worry about range and angles or timing as much as a shielder because the size of the weapon takes care of much of that for you, instead you major concern becomes blocking.  For me the second set of problems was harder to learn then blocking, it actually took me longer to learn how to play shielder then it took me to learn how to play 2 hander or polearm.   

"I'm more saying there's a big problem with the huge, unbreakable shields as there is no negative for using one."

As to this quote, I already mentioned that there are two really big disadvantages to playing shielder, killing power and range.  So I am not going back there.  But on the unbreakable argument; A houscarl shield goes down to 6 hits of an axe or poleaxe, 2 of this hits will be completed as a shielder is trying to get into weapon range of someone with a poleaxe.  That is 33% of a shield gone before the shielder even gets to swing his weapon, another big disadvantage.  On the average all shields go down much too quickly, it was very rare for me to keep a regular houscarls whole till the end of a round.  So please no more talk about unbreakable shields.

Back to Rusty, thank you for proving my point that timing, range and angles are all important for a shielder and those things are achieved as you put it through "good footwork".  However, even with "good footwork" and "speed bonous" you will still not 1 shot everyone "ALL OF THE TIME", to suggest that is misleading.

As to an agility build, even with good foot work and speed bonuses you will still get tons of whiffs.  I found that playing with a 12 str build with a PS 4 with a top tier sword I whiffed a disgustingly large amount of times, plus I had to hit some opponents 6 times or more when I did not wiff.  While delivering so many hits in a duel is fine, in a battlefield that is too much time wasted the more time you spend on an opponent the less control you have.  As time goes by you leave more and more room for the unexpected and the uncontrolled to happen (aka he gets supported by friendlies, stray throwing, stray arrows, cav runs you over ets....).  That is why being able to kill an opponent in 1 to 2 hits is a huge advantage that is not often talked about (its a major reason why 2 handers and polearms are so much better then shielders and why I am going back to polearm).  That is why I consider a high agility build for a shielder more difficult to play and not less then an str build shielder.