Make master of the field ALWAYS appear

[Adamar]

crpgWarband has needed this for years...

[Tindel]

Flag should spawn first or second minute into the round.
Then both teams run there and fight it out,  none of this random bullshit we have today. 

Combat without an objective is boring and pointless.

Battle now is just "survive as long as possible durrr"

[Idzo]

I voted this up but in this case maybe is better to play CTF.

[Joker86]

It's not irony, it's a terrible idea. You are trying to treat a symptom not a cause.

Sadly you can't patch  player intelligence to make them think of waiting for MOTF when there are lonely horse archers or hiding maulers.

I never understand the complaints about people being last and doing (sometimes) awesome stuff. Even if there are some boring ending how it is now, battle will get much more boring with flags forced and will destroy many epic situations.

I don't think that a one-man show justifies that 70 people have to wait two minutes longer before they can respawn, never mind how awesome the show is. Whenever I am the last survivor (which is very rare, I admit  ) I get stressed, because I know everybody is waiting for me. I run directly towards the next enemy and try to beat him dead, I couldn't force myself to play any kind of "hit and run"-tactic, my conscience of making the others wait so I can keep on playing would be too bad.

[Cup1d]

I get stressed, because I know everybody is waiting for me

virgin can be stressed before wedding night, but warrior...

[Joker86]

virgin can be stressed before wedding night, but warrior...

Well, of course that's a factor, but actually I know how it will be, so yo can't really compare it. Perhaps "stressed" is the wrong word, but I always keep the 70 people in mind who only wait for me. That's all.

[Cup1d]

half of this 70people will be happy if you'll play smart and win this round for your team.
Other half will hate you if you win, but this kind of «hate» is hard to achieve.

Have you ever seen how Massasin, or Kerrigan or someone else can decide the fate of the round alone?
It's most awesome moments of this game, when someone outnumbered can win. For all others moments you always can poll delaying retard

[Joker86]

Have you ever seen how Massasin, or Kerrigan or someone else can decide the fate of the round alone?
It's most awesome moments of this game, when someone outnumbered can win. For all others moments you always can poll delaying retard

I think this is where my situation is different 

[Phazey]

I must admit that i have often though about this.

It has it's upsides. But (and this is a pretty big but), by forcing people to fight for the flag, the strategy or tactics go out the window. You have to rush into the open and grab those flags.

So it can kinda spoil the heroic 1 vs many guerilla style fights, where one can 'devide and conquer' and deal with your enemies at leisure and take them down one by one with kiting, a bit of running around and using buildings and such.
Think about guys like Chase, Tor or other very good players. They never needlessly delay and giving them the full round time to win it is more epic.

I have to say i'm not strongly against it, but it's kinda lame to 'dumb down' cRPG battles to a siege-like scrim fight at the flag. Of which we get plenty if we play siege.

People are so impatient in cRPG and start raging immediately when they have to wait a minute or two for a round to end. Making the flags appear at 2:00 every round simplifies battle mode too much in my opinion, just because people can't stand the occasional delayer.

I say: let admins kick delayers or when there is no admin, use a poll.
If you must have your flags, make them appear as late as possible, to allow maximum time for fighting.

[Mustikki]

This is how the Master of the Field flags work at the moment.

I'm looking at the mission template right now. Here's the first part:

(click to show/hide)

Code: [Select]

      (1, 0, 0, [(multiplayer_is_server),
                 (eq, "$g_round_ended", 0),
                 (eq, "$g_battle_death_mode_started", 0),
                 (store_mission_timer_a, ":seconds_past_till_round_started"),
                 (val_sub, ":seconds_past_till_round_started", "$g_round_start_time"),
                 (store_div, "$g_multiplayer_round_max_seconds_div_2", "$g_multiplayer_round_max_seconds", 2),
                 (ge, ":seconds_past_till_round_started", "$g_multiplayer_round_max_seconds_div_2")],
       [
         (call_script, "script_calculate_new_death_waiting_time_at_death_mod"),
         (assign, "$g_battle_death_mode_started", 1),
         ]),

As you can see, it does wait until after half the round has passed until it starts the next set of checks.

Edit1:

(click to show/hide)

Code: [Select]

#script_calculate_new_death_waiting_time_at_death_mod
  # INPUT: none
  # OUTPUT: none
  ("calculate_new_death_waiting_time_at_death_mod",
   [
     (assign, ":num_living_players", 0), #count number of living players to find out death wait time
     (try_begin),
       (try_for_agents, ":agent_no"),
         (agent_is_human, ":agent_no"),
         (agent_is_alive, ":agent_no"),
         (val_add, ":num_living_players", 1),
       (try_end),
     (try_end),

     (val_add, ":num_living_players", multiplayer_battle_formula_value_a),
     (set_fixed_point_multiplier, 100),
     (store_mul, ":num_living_players", ":num_living_players", 100),
     (store_sqrt, ":sqrt_num_living_players", ":num_living_players"),
     (store_div, "$g_battle_waiting_seconds", multiplayer_battle_formula_value_b, ":sqrt_num_living_players"),
     (store_mission_timer_a, "$g_death_mode_part_1_start_time"),
   ]),


This code determines a waiting time depending on the number of living players. It's called during the previously posted chunk, as well as when an agent is slain.

(click to show/hide)

Code: [Select]

(1, 0, 0, [(multiplayer_is_server),
                 (eq, "$g_round_ended", 0),
                 (eq, "$g_battle_death_mode_started", 1),
                 (store_mission_timer_a, ":seconds_past_till_death_mode_part_1_started"),
                 (val_sub, ":seconds_past_till_death_mode_part_1_started", "$g_death_mode_part_1_start_time"),
                 (store_add, ":g_battle_waiting_seconds_plus_reduced_waiting_seconds", "$g_battle_waiting_seconds", "$g_reduced_waiting_seconds"),
                 (ge, ":seconds_past_till_death_mode_part_1_started", ":g_battle_waiting_seconds_plus_reduced_waiting_seconds"), #death mod start if anybody did not dies in "$g_battle_waiting_seconds" seconds
                 (store_mission_timer_a, ":current_time"),
                 (store_sub, ":seconds_past_in_round", ":current_time", "$g_round_start_time"),
                 (store_sub, ":g_multiplayer_round_max_seconds_sub_15", "$g_multiplayer_round_max_seconds", 15),
                 (lt, ":seconds_past_in_round", ":g_multiplayer_round_max_seconds_sub_15")], #death mod cannot start at last 15 seconds


So after the previous chunk checks the time, these checks are made. If the time since the previous checks passed are greater than a certain time, then the MOTF spawns, UNLESS the battle is in the last 15 seconds.

EDIT3: There are two triggers that reduce the amount of time in this check based on the time left, agent positions and deaths. I'll look into this when I have a better IDE than Wordpad at my disposal.

EDIT4:

(click to show/hide)

Code: [Select]

      (1, 0, 0, [(multiplayer_is_server),
                 (eq, "$g_round_ended", 0),
                 (store_mission_timer_a, ":current_time"),
                 (store_sub, ":seconds_past_in_round", ":current_time", "$g_round_start_time"),
                 (ge, ":seconds_past_in_round", "$g_multiplayer_round_max_seconds"),

                 (assign, ":overtime_needed", 0), #checking for if overtime is needed. Overtime happens when lower heighted flag is going up
                 (try_begin),
                   (eq, "$g_battle_death_mode_started", 2), #if death mod is currently open
                   
                   (scene_prop_get_instance, ":pole_1_id", "spr_headquarters_pole_code_only", 0),
                   (scene_prop_get_instance, ":pole_2_id", "spr_headquarters_pole_code_only", 1),
                   (scene_prop_get_instance, ":flag_1_id", "$team_1_flag_scene_prop", 0),
                   (scene_prop_get_instance, ":flag_2_id", "$team_2_flag_scene_prop", 0),

                   (prop_instance_get_position, pos1, ":pole_1_id"),
                   (prop_instance_get_position, pos2, ":pole_2_id"),
                   (prop_instance_get_position, pos3, ":flag_1_id"),
                   (prop_instance_get_position, pos4, ":flag_2_id"),

                   (get_distance_between_positions, ":height_of_flag_1", pos1, pos3),
                   (get_distance_between_positions, ":height_of_flag_2", pos2, pos4),
                   (store_add, ":height_of_flag_1_plus", ":height_of_flag_1", min_allowed_flag_height_difference_to_make_score),
                   (store_add, ":height_of_flag_2_plus", ":height_of_flag_2", min_allowed_flag_height_difference_to_make_score),

                   (try_begin),
                     (le, ":height_of_flag_1", ":height_of_flag_2_plus"),
                     (prop_instance_is_animating, ":is_animating", ":flag_1_id"),
                     (eq, ":is_animating", 1),
                     (prop_instance_get_animation_target_position, pos5, ":flag_1_id"),
                     (position_get_z, ":flag_2_animation_target_z", pos5),
                     (position_get_z, ":flag_1_cur_z", pos3),
                     (ge, ":flag_2_animation_target_z", ":flag_1_cur_z"),
                     (assign, ":overtime_needed", 1),
                   (try_end),
                   
                   (try_begin),
                     (le, ":height_of_flag_2", ":height_of_flag_1_plus"),
                     (prop_instance_is_animating, ":is_animating", ":flag_2_id"),
                     (eq, ":is_animating", 1),
                     (prop_instance_get_animation_target_position, pos5, ":flag_2_id"),
                     (position_get_z, ":flag_2_animation_target_z", pos5),
                     (position_get_z, ":flag_2_cur_z", pos4),
                     (ge, ":flag_2_animation_target_z", ":flag_2_cur_z"),
                     (assign, ":overtime_needed", 1),
                   (try_end),
                 (try_end),
                 (eq, ":overtime_needed", 0),
                 ],
       [ #round time is up
         (store_mission_timer_a, "$g_round_finish_time"),                         
         (assign, "$g_round_ended", 1),
         (assign, "$g_winner_team", -1),
         
         (try_begin), #checking for winning by death mod
           (eq, "$g_battle_death_mode_started", 2), #if death mod is currently open

           (scene_prop_get_instance, ":pole_1_id", "spr_headquarters_pole_code_only", 0),
           (scene_prop_get_instance, ":pole_2_id", "spr_headquarters_pole_code_only", 1),
           (scene_prop_get_instance, ":flag_1_id", "$team_1_flag_scene_prop", 0),
           (scene_prop_get_instance, ":flag_2_id", "$team_2_flag_scene_prop", 0),

           (prop_instance_get_position, pos1, ":pole_1_id"),
           (prop_instance_get_position, pos2, ":pole_2_id"),
           (prop_instance_get_position, pos3, ":flag_1_id"),
           (prop_instance_get_position, pos4, ":flag_2_id"),

           (get_distance_between_positions, ":height_of_flag_1", pos1, pos3),
           (get_distance_between_positions, ":height_of_flag_2", pos2, pos4),

           (try_begin),
             (ge, ":height_of_flag_1", ":height_of_flag_2"), #if flag_1 is higher than flag_2
             (store_sub, ":difference_of_heights", ":height_of_flag_1", ":height_of_flag_2"),
             (ge, ":difference_of_heights", min_allowed_flag_height_difference_to_make_score), #if difference between flag heights is greater than
             (assign, "$g_winner_team", 0),                                                    #"min_allowed_flag_height_difference_to_make_score" const value
           (else_try), #if flag_2 is higher than flag_1
             (store_sub, ":difference_of_heights", ":height_of_flag_2", ":height_of_flag_1"),
             (ge, ":difference_of_heights", min_allowed_flag_height_difference_to_make_score), #if difference between flag heights is greater than
             (assign, "$g_winner_team", 1),                                                    #"min_allowed_flag_height_difference_to_make_score" const value
           (try_end),
         (try_end),
   
         (multiplayer_get_my_player, ":my_player_no"), #send all players draw information of round.
         #for only server itself-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
         (call_script, "script_draw_this_round", "$g_winner_team"),
         #for only server itself-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
         (get_max_players, ":num_players"),
         (try_for_range, ":player_no", 1, ":num_players"), #0 is server so starting from 1
           (player_is_active, ":player_no"),
           (neq, ":player_no", ":my_player_no"),
           (multiplayer_send_int_to_player, ":player_no", multiplayer_event_draw_this_round, "$g_winner_team"),
         (try_end),
        ]),         


This is the entire trigger for determining MOTF victory. It checks to see if the flags are a certain distance apart and if either is animating to determine if overtime is needed. If the overtime is up or isn't needed, it checks to see if the flags are a certain distance apart, and if they are, the team with the higher flag wins.

All in all, it looks like a convoluted mess.

After half of the round progresses, it begins checking for spawning MotF:

Three conditions:
No deaths for a certain amount of time - this amount is determined by team size and time remaining - the count starts over every time there is a death
The teams are far enough apart from one another
There are more than 15 seconds remaining

If the round ends with both teams still alive, the highest flag produces victory. There is no way to 'win' before the timer expires without killing the entire enemy team.

[Joker86]

(click to show/hide)

I must admit that i have often though about this.

It has it's upsides. But (and this is a pretty big but), by forcing people to fight for the flag, the strategy or tactics go out the window. You have to rush into the open and grab those flags.

So it can kinda spoil the heroic 1 vs many guerilla style fights, where one can 'devide and conquer' and deal with your enemies at leisure and take them down one by one with kiting, a bit of running around and using buildings and such.
Think about guys like Chase, Tor or other very good players. They never needlessly delay and giving them the full round time to win it is more epic.

I have to say i'm not strongly against it, but it's kinda lame to 'dumb down' cRPG battles to a siege-like scrim fight at the flag. Of which we get plenty if we play siege.

People are so impatient in cRPG and start raging immediately when they have to wait a minute or two for a round to end. Making the flags appear at 2:00 every round simplifies battle mode too much in my opinion, just because people can't stand the occasional delayer.

I say: let admins kick delayers or when there is no admin, use a poll.
If you must have your flags, make them appear as late as possible, to allow maximum time for fighting.

I don't think that the effects on the gameplay during the first 3/4 of the round will be noticeable at all, I am pretty confident in the amount of autowalkers and lemming chargers in the community. And you can still use tactics to conquer a flag, on public server you can't change a lot more than the direction from which the infantry blob attacks.

Perhaps, if the gameplay of the last minutes of a map or the overall tactic start to suffer from this change, you can try out different stuff like adding another two flags, and who has the highest flag (three flags get added) wins. And suddenly you need plenty of tactics, and it can be very well that a poorly defended flag will be held by a single "hero"...

And ultimatively you can always revert the change. I can only imagine how it could work, that doesn't mean I will be right 

[Zisa]

Sadly you can't patch  player intelligence to make them think of waiting for MOTF when there are lonely horse archers or hiding maulers.


I don't think that a one-man show justifies that 70 people have to wait two minutes longer before they can respawn, never mind how awesome the show is. Whenever I am the last survivor (which is very rare, I admit  ) I get stressed, because I know everybody is waiting for me. I run directly towards the next enemy and try to beat him dead, I couldn't force myself to play any kind of "hit and run"-tactic, my conscience of making the others wait so I can keep on playing would be too bad.

You COULD change the way multipliers work - old style, or a hybrid. Multiplier mentality is not condusive to good play or fun play.

You could simply make it not possible to have a ranged character on a horse...

You will never stop the occasional idiot from the 'Look At me' behaviour i.e. running to the corner, hiding in a haystack, other useless behaviour. That's why you have admins.

[Joker86]

You COULD change the way multipliers work - old style, or a hybrid. Multiplier mentality is not condusive to good play or fun play.

Actually, how many players play the game, I would say they don't care about multipliers at all. Otherwise they would recognize that seperating from the team or charging over open fields when the enemy has more archers/cavalry would be ba d for the multiplier. But all they do is press W and walk towards the closest enemie to get a frag.

You could simply make it not possible to have a ranged character on a horse...

Simple, but in no way acceptable, and I am shocked that you suggest to delete entire classes out of the game 

You will never stop the occasional idiot from the 'Look At me' behaviour i.e. running to the corner, hiding in a haystack, other useless behaviour. That's why you have admins.

Yes, you can't stop him, But with flags it doesn't bother you any more. Round will be over, never mind if he hides or not. And you can't have admins always, at any time of the day.

[The_Bloody_Nine]

I don't think that a one-man show justifies that 70 people have to wait two minutes longer before they can respawn, never mind how awesome the show is. Whenever I am the last survivor (which is very rare, I admit  ) I get stressed, because I know everybody is waiting for me. I run directly towards the next enemy and try to beat him dead, I couldn't force myself to play any kind of "hit and run"-tactic, my conscience of making the others wait so I can keep on playing would be too bad.

Well, I disagree.

[Joker86]

Well, I disagree.

Of course. I just meant to show that you can see things differently. No need that you or me has to be "right" or "wrong". That's why there is a poll, so that everyone can show his opinion.