Limited skills

[Kafein]

And I'm not a 30 agi ninja lobbyer. I have 24 agility.

Quote of the day.

Extreme builds always have a disadvantage, the more extreme the build is the more extreme the disadvantage will be. I don't see anything wrong with it.

You do suffer from the disadvantages of an unbalanced build if you play it the same way you would play a balanced one. But if you strategically avoid throwing yourself into already lost combats as a str char (so you never have to retreat) or cherry pick your fights carefully as an agi char, you can mitigate the disadvantages because they won't show up.

[sF_Guardian]

Voted for pointless since "Fuck you" is not listed as option.

I use my 9 ps char and am happy with it but I have to deal with that at
27/15 i have no WM and just 3IF.
Its a lot of fun but I get better k/d with a 21/18 build.
Just a fuckin useless suggestion.

(click to show/hide)

But my 13 Shield troll alt is fun

[The_Bloody_Nine]

I was thinking that setting limits to how many points you can put into each skill could help solve a lot of ballance issues. At first yeah, you'd lose some degree of personalization, but people often complain about certain buids beeing too overpowered or underpowered. So maybe those builds could be snuffed out simply by setting each skill with a limited number of points, this way we'd no longer have to deal with srt crutchers, agi whores,...
This way, ballancing classes would perhaps cease to be so one sided to the point of nerfing, and people who often complain about not being able to deal with a certain situation will be driven into a more stable build and perhaps QQ less on the forums(This goes for all classes).

I may not see all the ends of this, so post away.

there, you said it yourself. People complain. Just don't listen, problem solved.

[Kajia]

with respect, i think the problem are not the skills, but the weapon proficiencies.

i would limit wpf in any proficiency to maximum 130 or even 100 or less.
that would reduce spamming with 1-handed, 2-handed and polearms and would cure the archery sniping a whole lot.
i wouldn't have a problem with too high skills then, because even 13-shield character would not be able too exploit his shield as well as now
(he can't hit as fast => his wings can be chambered => he faces a higher thread by incoming swings => he will put less in shield and more in if, for example)

i can't stress enough how i see that ridiculous weapon speed is encouraging exploit and hence is the main cause of people not thinking about how to play fair/ as a team/ less stupid (like kill-hungry teamkilling)/ and so on.
if the game allows us to outspam anybody without any personal skill involved, then we do it! i would like a better basis for everyone to have more equal chances.
this wpf cap would seriously reduce the ridiculousness of the speed gap, but you would still have the advantage of heirloomed weapons, which is what we want, as i see it.

i have fought with 1 wpf in duels and playing with less wpf feels way more natural and challenging, i can imagine that most people would like it and adapt to it.
and in battle and siege my current 70 1-handed wpf are more than enough. i care more about every swing, i watch out for my teammates and i care more about how i hit (i tend to aim for the head or legs, i watch my footwork, i stab, i use my surroundings). i have never really cared about that before!

so, if you can't spam, you will advance in skill - you will try to overcome your disadvantages in other ways. your personal skill will evolve.

please think about it.


tl:dr:
cap wpfs at <130 for more smartness as opposed to skill-less spamming, make the game challenging in other ways than possible exploiting or raging against exploiters

[Xant]

I don't think WPF matters currently. Tor with his 180 wpf can't spam me any better than someone with 100 wpf. It's a very minimal increase in swing speed. Spam doesn't really exist in the game, unless weapon stun counts and that doesn't happen too often.

[Son Of Odin]

Nah... You can't actually outspam anyone anymore... That's just my opinion though. If someone backpeddles and just spams, then just don't follow him. Then he has to figure out some other ways and tries to spam more but cant just do it with "w" key because assumably you are the more skilled one and able to overcome his stupid no-skill spam. WPF doesn't affect too much in the whole spamming issue nowadays. It's mostly weapon speed itself. Not to mention athletics.

The problem isn't even the spam. There is non skill spam, and then there is skilled "spam". If you get owned by non skill spam spam spam, it's completely your own fault. Skilled spam with hiltslashes and stuff similiar... I completely accept those tricks and it is a big reason why I still find this game interesting. Yeah... it's still probably your own fault because you were worse player than the other and should die in that situation anyhow.

[Leshma]

Spam has very little to do with wpf, especially if you're using slower weapons.

[Miwiw]

Also unbreakable shields are wierd..
Imo 9 it's enough for many skill.
It's also funny to see or try some extreme build, but i like a realistic game more, so i would vote for a limit.

I don't think that 9 should be the cap, however I agree that unbreakable shields are kinda stupid. Not that I hate or dislike shielders or their art of fighting (I actually love shielder, was also shielder myself for ages, included more than 1 1/2 years in native), but a shield should break sooner or later. That is actually called realism, and also game balance.

In the end I voted for no though because I believe if someone chooses to put all points in one skill, he should do it. He will have pros and cons for his build and will either have high health, armor and damage or more speed and shield breaks less.
Though I of course admit that 10 Power Strike is as crazy as 10 Athletics, 10 Riding or 10 Shield skill.

I use balanced builds myself, which means I actually never go under 15 Agility or Strength.

[Ninja_Khorin]

I don't think WPF matters currently. Tor with his 180 wpf can't spam me any better than someone with 100 wpf. It's a very minimal increase in swing speed. Spam doesn't really exist in the game, unless weapon stun counts and that doesn't happen too often.

I can't spam Dezilagel with his poleaxe and I have 174 wpf. Speed makes it harder to block, and therefore attack back, yes, but not impossible. And my fullstrength guy(36str/3agi) doesn't get spammed either. Speed helps when fighting multiple enemies, though.

[Xant]

I can't spam Dezilagel with his poleaxe and I have 174 wpf. Speed makes it harder to block, and therefore attack back, yes, but not impossible. And my fullstrength guy(36str/3agi) doesn't get spammed either. Speed helps when fighting multiple enemies, though.

Speed makes it harder to block?

[Kayle]

why dont we all just play with the same build, same weapons etc etc...? -.-----------

[Adamar]

Most build would still be available. What Im suggesting here would simply weed out the more unballanced ones. But I conclude with this thread that the community likes them.

[Kajia]

I don't think WPF matters currently. Tor with his 180 wpf can't spam me any better than someone with 100 wpf. It's a very minimal increase in swing speed. Spam doesn't really exist in the game, unless weapon stun counts and that doesn't happen too often.

dude, being a better player doesn't make you right. seriously, think about it, watch other players.
i'd say it's not only your blocking that saves you, more like your experience and overall wits i reckon.

and it's funny how your statements always sound so 100% sure, you just state something without any reason or back-up, and then you trust that people don't get what kind of fallacy it is. congrats to that rhetoric, but it doesn't work on me.
you haven't even answered to what i said later in my comment regarding enhancing your personal skill. not that i'd expect that of you, that's for sure.

there are some more people playing this game, i think most of them become very frustrated whenever you can't possibly block an insta-hitting chunk of metal on a stick that behaves like nothing even remotely axe or sword-like. (not even talking about me as a victim here, i don't play that often anymore, or at least i try to, because i see what the problems are and i can't just accept them)

has anybody ever seen how fast Tors swings are? now compare to something 1-handed! (and he's using a great long axe) i mean seriously wtf? and now consider glaive and poleaxes, gs, danish and german gs, etc.
how can it be that weapons that long are faster than a 1-hander? oh yeah, i thought about it!
it is because of a mixture of turning into hits, footwork, weapon proficiency, weapon speed and radial velocity which gets faster the longer the weapon. and yes, the latter is the biggest problem.

but to really cure this problem reducing wpf would be one approach, not the best but a good compromise between axe-waggling and kinda block-able weapon-behavior.

WPF doesn't affect too much in the whole spamming issue nowadays. It's mostly weapon speed itself. Not to mention athletics.

okay, certainly, spamming is not the only issue and was only one example. then if that's the case, then why is reducing weapon speed on all long weapons still not considered?
this weapon speed with long weapons is one of the most annoying (fixable) thing in this game!


and i want to mention something else because i consider it important:
knowing your own build is good, but being an experienced player is more than that.
so what i'm saying is that when you really need 180 wpf to beat me i don't necessarily think of you as a good player.
relying on fast weapon builds is not more than a crutch for mediocre gamers.

Tor would be a good player in this sense, but he is still breaking any law of physics because he can, hence staying behind his capabilities.
(i mean you are a master if you can do your work with every tool, otherwise you're not.)

[kinngrimm]

I vote no. Extreme builds aren't particurarly effective, the only problem I have is the invulnerable shield at 13 skill, so limiting it to 12 would be alright. Other than that, I don't see the point.  And I'm not a 30 agi ninja lobbyer. I have 24 agility.

depending on my opponent, he takes minimum 3-4 hits to break my shield under best circumstances. Like 3x loomed great axe, movement bonus, holding attack, sweet spot hits and his str. That combined with some players exeptional blocking skills ... is a sure death sentence.
My shield skill is 10 and 3x loomed elite cav.

The invulnurable shield is at 15, not 13 which would be like minimum 10-12 hits to break it with circumstances descriped above.
Those with really invulnurable shields with shield skill 15, are i guess STF characters, with lvl 30(31?) so when you put 30 agi and 15 shield skill together as vibe mentioned they have some big drawbacks.

What again is your problem with a hard to destroy shield? Not like you Kohrin cant down most of the players without a hustle anyways ... and having a shield which would be indistructable wouldn't safe one if he also wants to attack and not only delay which makes him in my eyes a target for kick or ban.


EDIT: what Kajia said

I don't think that 9 should be the cap, however I agree that unbreakable shields are kinda stupid. Not that I hate or dislike shielders or their art of fighting (I actually love shielder, was also shielder myself for ages, included more than 1 1/2 years in native), but a shield should break sooner or later. That is actually called realism, and also game balance.

...

weapons should break "That is actually called realism, and also game balance. "
playability beats realism, why would i take a shield if it breaks with every second strike it takes.
And you can't tell me that every shield just broke with first strike in a battle, why would a general outfit his troops anyways with them if they are crap.
The legions of rome, did they all need a new set of shields after a battle?

[_Tak_]

The invulnurable shield is at 15, not 13 which would be like minimum 10-12 hits to break it with circumstances descriped above.

Kinngrimm you got it wrong, 13 shield skill is actually unbreakable, try it on STF you will see.