Limited skills

[Miwiw]

weapons should break "That is actually called realism, and also game balance. "
playability beats realism, why would i take a shield if it breaks with every second strike it takes.
And you can't tell me that every shield just broke with first strike in a battle, why would a general outfit his troops anyways with them if they are crap.
The legions of rome, did they all need a new set of shields after a battle?

I didn't say a shield should break after 1 hit. That would be stupid, wouldn't it?
But a shield breaks after a certain amount of hits. That decision isn't up to me.

[kinngrimm]

I didn't say a shield should break after 1 hit. That would be stupid, wouldn't it?
But a shield breaks after a certain amount of hits. That decision isn't up to me.

So after how many hits should a shield break? 2,3, 10, 20 more? Only depending on the weapon perhaps which tries to penetrate it? Like only an axe would really make damage to it? What about all the weapons who have wooden shafts and are been used to block and never get a scratch?
What about weapons who have iron/steel shaft and are been used to block mauls or great mauls, shouldn't they at least deform?

I am a shielder because i liked the imagination of it, i am dedicated to that class, still i have tried out others. Why would you want to force a player into a style he doesn't like? Blocking manualy is a different kind of playstyle which i don't enjoy and don't want to be forced into. Shields have been nerfed since i am in this game mod and from what i see, people who start as shielder rarely stick with that class or leave the mod in the end(That i know as a clan leader). Guess why ...

Now there are a few shielders who are str based who regularly get top scores but i rarely see agi based shielders in top score, well there is Leo King on EU servers but thats about it.

I do see some shielders who are sticking with their teammates and trying to protect them, which is admirable, they normally end up either getting ganked at end of round oneshoted after their shield breaks after 2-3 hits of an axe, how fun is that for them. Going agi and high shield skill is for me about being able to hold against the odds, keeping some people away from backstabbing my folks through the flancs, holding them of, i dont need to survive all teh time but it helps to have them occupied for some more seconds either to get reinforced or that our main force is able to finish off their main force where several peopel are misssing who maybe trying to down me 

Point is, reducing shields even more then they have been by balancing efforts to single shields, not only takes away personal choice and fun but also tactical choices.

[Adamar]

With limited skills all around, you'd have limited shield skill, but your opponent wouldn't be able to break stuff up easely and 1 hit kill you.
Just saying...

[kinngrimm]

With limited skills all around, you'd have limited shield skill, but your opponent wouldn't be able to break stuff up easely and 1 hit kill you.
Just saying...

You do have limited skills already and i accept that there are str builds who onehit me, that there are balanced builds who are incredibly fast swinging/moving with their mauls and monsters who are awsome on horseback as on feet or tor blockbots with lighting speed attacks where you move wrong a bit you got hit anyways. These aren't the rule these are the expections i except that .. it brings color, flavours into the game.

We all are limited with our main char by the level cap. 36 over a very loooooooooooooooooooooooong time.


And btw in my opinion i told that before we shouldn't have allts and STF chars at all, but invest our time into a single char which would be able to respec at any time, having the need to accumulate more loomed items for several classes and dragging out the urge to go for max level. Having the opportunity to fill in roles for a strat battle in an blink of an eye .. "we need 3 more archers .. ok wait i load my saved char build ... done", but then this would be kRPG and not cRPG wouldn't it ;) whereby chadz whants us to live with the dessions we made, which i accepted by only keep on playing this mod.

[Leshma]

The invulnurable shield is at 15, not 13 which would be like minimum 10-12 hits to break it with circumstances descriped above.
Those with really invulnurable shields with shield skill 15, are i guess STF characters, with lvl 30(31?) so when you put 30 agi and 15 shield skill together as vibe mentioned they have some big drawbacks.

13 x 8% damage reduction = 104% damage reduction = invunerable = healing shield

[Xant]

dude, being a better player doesn't make you right. seriously, think about it, watch other players.
i'd say it's not only your blocking that saves you, more like your experience and overall wits i reckon.

and it's funny how your statements always sound so 100% sure, you just state something without any reason or back-up, and then you trust that people don't get what kind of fallacy it is. congrats to that rhetoric, but it doesn't work on me.
you haven't even answered to what i said later in my comment regarding enhancing your personal skill. not that i'd expect that of you, that's for sure.

there are some more people playing this game, i think most of them become very frustrated whenever you can't possibly block an insta-hitting chunk of metal on a stick that behaves like nothing even remotely axe or sword-like. (not even talking about me as a victim here, i don't play that often anymore, or at least i try to, because i see what the problems are and i can't just accept them)

has anybody ever seen how fast Tors swings are? now compare to something 1-handed! (and he's using a great long axe) i mean seriously wtf? and now consider glaive and poleaxes, gs, danish and german gs, etc.
how can it be that weapons that long are faster than a 1-hander? oh yeah, i thought about it!
it is because of a mixture of turning into hits, footwork, weapon proficiency, weapon speed and radial velocity which gets faster the longer the weapon. and yes, the latter is the biggest problem.

I don't have to watch other players - if they're getting spammed they're failing at footwork or not turning into their swings. You cannot be spammed if you play well. It's impossible. Hiltslash can be confused as spam, though, so if you mean that, OK. 1h can't hiltslash, but 1h can do something similar with double left swing. Only works against improper footwork, though (like hiltslashing).

My statements sound 100% sure because I don't claim something unless I'm 100% sure. I didn't answer your statement about personal skill because it's based on the false premise that spamming exists (and in a way it does - but it's countered by attack-block-attack-block rhytm - and the other guy gets hit for sure - i.e noobspam - ask Templar_alpha for lessons on that).

M&B has a pretty high skill ceiling. But there are lots of people now that can block forever in cRPG. Blocking and attacking properly is a very common skill nowadays. Dumb down the mechanics more and the combat loses all depth.

I've seen how fast Tor's swings are and I've had no problem matching them with 125 wpf and a 1hander. It's not true that 2h/polearms are faster than 1h. You can turn into hits and use footwork to make 1h swings connect faster as well.

[Leshma]

You're facing a spammer. Block couple of his hits, make sure you're holding your attack and release it when you catch his spamming pattern. Successfully chamber his attack and aim for head. Most of them will back off and start to backpedal.

I'm doing this all the time and it works. If you have good reflexes and fast and proper connection try to hit him first. Problem solved.

Just don't hit body with ordinary attacks, you're barely gonna hurt the spammer and he'll keep spamming (and he might chamber you, lucky chambers happen all the time). Hit him really hard and he'll stop. People start to panic when they lose 60-80% HP in a single blow.

Cicero's attacking pattern works really well. Overhead feints but held overhead feints. Make sure enemy doesn't catch you when you're preparing your chamber. Spice it up with lolspin lolstabs and you're gonna be feared, very few will have the guts to fight you one on one.

Never panic, never lose control. Greed and panicking are the main reasons why decent players die in melee.

Tor is annoying, just like Chase. Excellent blocker, great footwork, a lot of armor/hp. And they keep attacking, never stop. You'll have to be very patient and play a bit dirty to beat players of that caliber.

[Miwiw]

So after how many hits should a shield break? 2,3, 10, 20 more? Only depending on the weapon perhaps which tries to penetrate it? Like only an axe would really make damage to it? What about all the weapons who have wooden shafts and are been used to block and never get a scratch?
What about weapons who have iron/steel shaft and are been used to block mauls or great mauls, shouldn't they at least deform?

Not sure what you are up to. Looks like you are answering to someone else post'. I never said anything about a weapon type. I only said that a shield should not be unbreakable. Dont take comments I didn't make.

[kinngrimm]

Not sure what you are up to. Looks like you are answering to someone else post'. I never said anything about a weapon type. I only said that a shield should not be unbreakable. Dont take comments I didn't make.

look at my post again, i was asking questions not telling what you said. Still your suggestions would imply as a result that certain skills should be more limited as they are atm and some certain skills should be nerved more then otheres . A player who goes max level wouldn't normaly aim for these maxed out skill level of >=12 with his main character. The main characters when you look at them are mostly balanced when they are finished with generations with a small edge to str or agi., So the problem isn't that but STF and perhaps even alts or generational mains who are still testing out stuff which then but will be history again after reaching the next generation.

What i am upto ... sounds like me is a devious plotter ... not strat discussion here ^^, so what i am ... up to is trying to get your attention to the different types of characters(main/generational, main/max lvl, alt/generational alt/maxlvl, STF) and their type of impact they have on the game-play.
As it is obvious at least to me that people who try out things, try out the limits and when they are done trying out they have found the way they wanna go ... which i guess isn't normaly the unbreakable shield when you go for max lvl as then you are missing out on a lot of other things.

And my comments onto the weapon type are as everything here not only for you to read, but an idear which came to mind when i look at f.e. "shieldbreaker" a weapon attribute espicially against one type of gear. Perhaps we need "weapon breaker" or forget about both.
I would like to see a test for a couple of months where shields couldn't be broken at all. Would then anywhere shielders are popping up or just keep on going as they now see more reason to it? Would the world end to spin? So many questions so few answers ...

[Son Of Odin]

I agree with Xant and Leshma 100%. Especially these parts:

You cannot be spammed if you play well. It's impossible.

M&B has a pretty high skill ceiling. But there are lots of people now that can block forever in cRPG. Blocking and attacking properly is a very common skill nowadays. Dumb down the mechanics more and the combat loses all depth.

[Vibe]

How is anyone bothered by 13 shield skill players? They're harmless and contribute little to their team. They also die in like one hit.

[Son Of Odin]

How is anyone bothered by 13 shield skill players? They're harmless and contribute little to their team. They also die in like one hit.

Bump them once and they are almost dead .

[Kajia]

I don't have to watch other players - if they're getting spammed they're failing at footwork or not turning into their swings. You cannot be spammed if you play well. It's impossible. Hiltslash can be confused as spam, though, so if you mean that, OK. 1h can't hiltslash, but 1h can do something similar with double left swing. Only works against improper footwork, though (like hiltslashing).

My statements sound 100% sure because I don't claim something unless I'm 100% sure. I didn't answer your statement about personal skill because it's based on the false premise that spamming exists (and in a way it does - but it's countered by attack-block-attack-block rhytm - and the other guy gets hit for sure - i.e noobspam - ask Templar_alpha for lessons on that).

M&B has a pretty high skill ceiling. But there are lots of people now that can block forever in cRPG. Blocking and attacking properly is a very common skill nowadays. Dumb down the mechanics more and the combat loses all depth.

yes, spamming only works against noob players, but i already said it's just an example, you seem to cling to single words here.

[off topic] i don't want to repeat everything, because i don't see the point in stressing out something if no one is interested in changing their own mind or at least trying to understand.
i mean how can you be 100% sure at all? that's impossible, someone who believes something like that would have a hard time to learn and is ultimately in many cases wrong.
just saying. [on topic]

so my point wasn't about whether you can spam or not, but how unbelievably fast long weapons are compared to shorter ones.
they mostly do more damage and as they are calculated similarly they have the huge bonus of radial velocity when you turn into your hit because they are longer. this is just not taken into account by the devs, and seemingly it's only the case in cRPG, in Native you have a delay on turning your character ... for a reason.
but simply slowing wpf or weapon speed down could also fix it.

yeah, whatever, like i said i'm not feeling as a victim, i mean i do constantly fall for long axes and op glaives even though i can block if i must, but at least i know it's a broken game.
if it's fucked up i'll just play it less, easy solution. but i would like to have a good game, this one always had the potential for it has a big player base.
i guess depth would increase if you couldn't rely on speed so much. teamwork would increase. (there is more to depth than just having duels you know, and even duels would be more fun imo)

I've seen how fast Tor's swings are and I've had no problem matching them with 125 wpf and a 1hander. It's not true that 2h/polearms are faster than 1h. You can turn into hits and use footwork to make 1h swings connect faster as well.

that's nice! one has to be good at something.

[Xant]

I thought your whole post was about spamming? You used that word like five times in your post, almost every paragraph.

Even your tl;dr is this:
"tl:dr:
cap wpfs at <130 for more smartness as opposed to skill-less spamming"

Now it's just an example? How would changing WPF limits adjust the speed differences between shorter and longer weapons? If you make both 130 max wfp, then you still have the same problem.

Hypothetical problem, of course. I've seen no proof anywhere, in-game or out the game, that shorter weapons are slower.

In Native you have a delay on turning your character but not in cRPG? Elaborate on that? I wasn't aware Native had any more delays than cRPG.

that's nice! one has to be good at something.

Thanks, but being good is my curse. I'm good at everything I do.

[Kajia]

try it out, load native sp and play. your character will have a delay on turning. your character will also stand without turning when you don't raise a weapon for a swing.

spamming is the most obvious issue that comes with high speed weapons. that's why i used it to explain my point.

How would changing WPF limits adjust the speed differences between shorter and longer weapons? If you make both 130 max wfp, then you still have the same problem.

good point.
so you'd say that to fix this problem we would instead have to reduce weapon speed of weapons with shafts (swung long polearms) and weapons speed on long 2-handed weps?

i don't have to necessarily disagree with you, it isn't productive anyway.