Nerf The Courser

[Lemmy_Winks]

Badplayer, ya its a pure conicidence all the best lancers use Courser cavs, it really is just the player themselves and not the courser that makes them good. Even if that were true, then given the fact that the best players ride coursers, wouldnt that mean that the courser is the best horse? I mean it must be if the best and most knowledge cav players all choose to ride coursers, they of all people would know what the best horse is.

Spaniard even if your have the ability to win or are even likely to win attacking someone head on or in such a way that they have the opportunity to hit you too is still very stupid. Your taking a maybe 70% chance, if your good, of dehorsing or killing the other player instead of a 100% chance if you approach safely from behind. Unless your heuy deliberately attacking another lancer cav from the front is stupid, thats how people get killed, even heuy sometimes. Well Spaniard im sure it would be easier to hit a xbow cav in the butt seeing as it tends to be easier to hit people when you approach them from their blind spot, and again its a much bigger target.

Um, yes i would like crpg to be as fair as possible, and as an admin i would hope you would too. It may never be perfectly fair, but thats no excuse not to constantly strive to make the game as fair as possible.  Yes it should be more fair for archers, thats part of this whole fair as possible theme. The courser as ive said many times i the main problem other horses arent so unfair in this reguard. I may be a cav but it doesnt mean i dont want it to be fair for other players archers included. Im getting the courser time from personal experience, hearing the hooves and immeidatly after hearing the sound getting lanced. Also just from spectating after death i see that players are significantly less likely to notice a courser coming in time than any other horse due to its speed. You dont really need more riding than your horse requires. The small bit of extra maneuverability is nice, but if your good enough at controlling your horse you don't need the help.

Well spaniard for surviabilty, you see the courser has more health and armor than 6 of the other horses, putting it at rank 8 for survivbility atleast. Given its immense speed it is easier to survive with than alot of hte slower horses that are armored but not really heavily armored, definitly easier to survive with than a destriter, so it has to be atleast rank 8 for survivability, but it is almost certainly higher. Your pike example doesnt really make sense, by that logic a Cata has the same survivability as a courser. Im not talking about survability in terms of someone running into a pike or jumping off the edge of the map, or anything else that will cause certain death to any horse, thats not a good way to judge survivability.

Im looking at actual stats, which do make a differnece when it comes to taking damage from an expected source like an arrow or a sword. Also i dont understand how using an OP item has ever helped anyone become better than other players. Typically an OP item only makes up for a players deficiencies and makes it so that they do not need to develop skills in the first place as their OP item can take care of things for them. And again this is about the coursers price in comparison to its high end abilities, its price needs to go up, this isnt about anything else.

[Overdriven]

Overdriven your distorting the facts by compareing the courser to a small group of horses that does have more manuverability than a courser. If you actually include all of the horses the average manuverability is 41, making the coursre as i said average, and being average in a category is nto a weakness, especially when your the undisputed best in the most important category, speed, and when your very cheap compared to the average horse price.

Are you seriously counting the heavy horses when discussing the courser? Stick to the light horses. And if you do that then courser is low tier for manoeuvre. Heavies can't be included in a discussion as they are pretty much a different section to that of the light horses. Speed is not the most important category at all. You are obviously clueless as to how real cav fights work.

Badplayer, ya its a pure conicidence all the best lancers use Courser cavs, it really is just the player themselves and not the courser that makes them good. Even if that were true, then given the fact that the best players ride coursers, wouldnt that mean that the courser is the best horse? I mean it must be if the best and most knowledge cav players all choose to ride coursers, they of all people would know what the best horse is.

Really? Last I checked there's a fair even spread of the top lancers horse use. I've seen plenty on arabians, destriers or coursers. Hell just look at Kerri and Leed, two of the best EU lancers who use Arabians.

The coursers price is fine and I have enough gold that even if you doubled the price it wouldn't matter to me. But putting it up at all is entirely unnecessary.

As for it being OP. I can guarantee that riding a courser around is a pretty skilled thing. Try riding it at full speed on most maps where turning is required a lot....it's not going to happen. Give me open plains and I'll tear the map a part with my +3 courser. But any slight hill and the other horse types are at an advantage.

[Son Of Odin]

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[Lemmy_Winks]

Are you seriously counting the heavy horses when discussing the courser? Stick to the light horses. And if you do that then courser is low tier for manoeuvre. Heavies can't be included in a discussion as they are pretty much a different section to that of the light horses. Speed is not the most important category at all. You are obviously clueless as to how real cav fights work.

Really? Last I checked there's a fair even spread of the top lancers horse use. I've seen plenty on arabians, destriers or coursers. Hell just look at Kerri and Leed, two of the best EU lancers who use Arabians.

The coursers price is fine and I have enough gold that even if you doubled the price it wouldn't matter to me. But putting it up at all is entirely unnecessary.

As for it being OP. I can guarantee that riding a courser around is a pretty skilled thing. Try riding it at full speed on most maps where turning is required a lot....it's not going to happen. Give me open plains and I'll tear the map a part with my +3 courser. But any slight hill and the other horse types are at an advantage.

Yes im counting the heavy horses when discussing the courser, because this disccusion is about horse price, and they are all horses weather they are heavy or not. Even then a 19k courser is better than a 65k plated charger, how is that ok, why would a serious player choose to ride a plated charger, because the plated charger looks prettier? Even if i stuck to light horses, then in that case courser would still be #1 in damage and would now be #1 in durability/survivability... hmm that sounds really OP to me we should probably nerf it or at-least make it more expensive huh.

I dont now about how many on EU use arabians, but no one does on NA, including the best cav lancers who all use coursers. And at any rate as i said eariler the NA lancers are better than the EU lancers. American lancers win cav compitions in EU, which should never happen. And obviously your biased given the fact that you ride a courser, so i have a hard time giving credibility to your arguments. Turning in towns?

The secret there is to just slow down like everyone else does. So a courser is balanced because in the unlikely event that you inentionally run up a hill while being followed by a arabian lancer, of which there are very few on EU and none on NA, then you might get run down and hit, which is what happens all the time everywhere to every cav who isnt riding a courser and is being chased by a horseman on a courser.

[Son Of Odin]

And at any rate as i said eariler the NA lancers are better than the EU lancers. American lancers win cav compitions in EU, which should never happen

That is only because I wasn't able to participate in that competition . And as far as I know it wasn't "competitions" it was only one competition that has ever been arranged.

[Overdriven]

Yes im counting the heavy horses when discussing the courser, because this disccusion is about horse price, and they are all horses weather they are heavy or not. Even then a 19k courser is better than a 65k plated charger, how is that ok, why would a serious player choose to ride a plated charger, because the plated charger looks prettier? Even if i stuck to light horses, then in that case courser would still be #1 in damage and would now be #1 in durability/survivability... hmm that sounds really OP to me we should probably nerf it or at-least make it more expensive huh.

I dont now about how many on EU use arabians, but no one does on NA, including the best cav lancers who all use coursers. And at any rate as i said eariler the NA lancers are better than the EU lancers. American lancers win cav compitions in EU, which should never happen. And obviously your biased given the fact that you ride a courser, so i have a hard time giving credibility to your arguments. Turning in towns?

The secret there is to just slow down like everyone else does. So a courser is balanced because in the unlikely event that you inentionally run up a hill while being followed by a arabian lancer, of which there are very few on EU and none on NA, then you might get run down and hit, which is what happens all the time everywhere to every cav who isnt riding a courser and is being chased by a horseman on a courser.

Heavy horses have only been less viable since the horse leg damage introduction (an admittedly stupid idea), otherwise they were well worth the price however. On city maps a well amoured plated charger user could do a lot of damage. The courser wouldn't be number 1 in durability. That's the destrier which is a bloody pain in the arse to take down (a horse which you ride). Ask an HA which the hardest light horse to kill is and it'll be the destrier every time. Simply because it takes so many god damn arrows. And what makes you think the courser is number 1 in damage?

Hmmm yes one competition which does not in any way reflect even closely on a battle situation obviously makes the NA over all better lancers For someone who was so insistent on sticking to the stats you should be able to see the amount of bullshit in your statement.

As I stated...increasing the price of the courser wouldn't affect me (big gold reserves woo). So yeah I'm not biased. I simply see 0 basis for raising it in your arguments other than 'ZOMG I GOT SO BUTTRAPED BY AN AWESOME NA COURSER LANCER FFFFUUUUUUUUUUUU'. Despite the fact that you are trying to present your arguments well, the statements are full of crap and that's what it amounts to. The -13 on your OP should have given you a big enough clue by now.

There are quite a lot of arabians on EU. And even if they aren't, the destrier can get from stop-start faster than a courser, as can the majority of light horses (the most used). And given the maps that the official servers have on rotation, that is what is most important. I will say it again and again. Speed means shit all except for the most open maps where even then good cav know how to weave and dodge so the speed can be nullified.

[dynamike]

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Well but the brown duck IS clearly superior and needs a nerf. I mean, look at the facts so clearly presented man!

[Lemmy_Winks]

Heavy horses have only been less viable since the horse leg damage introduction (an admittedly stupid idea), otherwise they were well worth the price however. On city maps a well amoured plated charger user could do a lot of damage. The courser wouldn't be number 1 in durability. That's the destrier which is a bloody pain in the arse to take down (a horse which you ride). Ask an HA which the hardest light horse to kill is and it'll be the destrier every time. Simply because it takes so many god damn arrows. And what makes you think the courser is number 1 in damage?

Hmmm yes one competition which does not in any way reflect even closely on a battle situation obviously makes the NA over all better lancers For someone who was so insistent on sticking to the stats you should be able to see the amount of bullshit in your statement.

As I stated...increasing the price of the courser wouldn't affect me (big gold reserves woo). So yeah I'm not biased. I simply see 0 basis for raising it in your arguments other than 'ZOMG I GOT SO BUTTRAPED BY AN AWESOME NA COURSER LANCER FFFFUUUUUUUUUUUU'. Despite the fact that you are trying to present your arguments well, the statements are full of crap and that's what it amounts to. The -13 on your OP should have given you a big enough clue by now.

There are quite a lot of arabians on EU. And even if they aren't, the destrier can get from stop-start faster than a courser, as can the majority of light horses (the most used). And given the maps that the official servers have on rotation, that is what is most important. I will say it again and again. Speed means shit all except for the most open maps where even then good cav know how to weave and dodge so the speed can be nullified.

Given that the courser has about has much hp and about as much armor as a destriter, and that it is much faster and therefor much easier to survive with i would put it above a destriter in terms of survivability. And again, this is not about "light" horses, this is about horses in general, they are all horses and they all fill the same slot some unofficial/nonexistent distinction like light vs heavy is meaningless, its all about cost.

Courser is #1 in damage because it moves the fastest and you get most of your damage when your cav from your horses movement speed, which i gues you dont know because you don't now very much about cavalry (your a horse archer which is mainly just a troll/delayer build). Yes i would put NA cav over Eu cav from one compeition, EU was not even beaten by our best cav, and the fact that they were beaten when the US players had atrocious ping (timing is very important in lancer cav fight) as some of if not all of them were on the west coast. EU should never have lost under those circumstances and still 1 win is more than EUs 0 so id have to put NA cav ahead of EU.

I dont see how my statements are full of crap, as is undeniably true courser is #1 in damage and #8 in durability at-least and yet it is #9 in cost, that doesn't add up at all and is completely inexcusable. Obviously this thread attracts the attention of mainly courser users (as far as i know everyone on this page so far is a courser user except me), i doubt many others care, and they will thumbs down me due to their own bias. Saying speed means nothing is worse than saying powerstrike for a two hander is meaningless. Speed for a horse is like a stat with power-strike and atheletcis mixed into one, both of which are extremely important. And for what you said about city maps, well as far as i know most cav do not ride a horse on seige. I can think of maybe 1 or 2 battle maps that are kind of in a city environment and are close quarters enough that might limit speed, but I,as well as almost all cav do not even bother riding a horse at all on these 2 maps which makes your point irrelevant.

I dont know what "good cav" your talking about. But on NA i can think of literally 1 good lancer cav who doesnt ride a courser (servin it up) and hes not as good as many of the courser lancers. You keep bringing up maneuverability but again to compare a horse to a select group of horses instead of all of the horses is distorting the stats to try to prove your false point (i believe in research that's called Junk Science or something but i forget). All cav fill the one same spot, they are all horses, you have to compare all of them, you cant be like oh well the 19k courser is better than a 65k plated charger but its ok cause the plated charger has armor on its model texture. Why would you need to distort the stats to try to prove your point if you weren't wrong? Obviously you are wrong and fully aware of the fact. And when it comes to balancing a game, which is the purpose of this forum, if you make 14 horse, and 80-90% of the real cav player base all use 1 horse, then you have a serious balance problem.

Also u mentioned somewere that coursers take much longer than other horses to start up or something. I have a destriter with 44 manuv and ive ridden a regular courser before, ive never noticed any difference in start times, all horse take a long time to start up since they nerfed cav a while back and i highly doubt a differnece of just 1 point in maunv between dest and courser would make any differnece at all although i dont know about the Arabian i havnt ridden one. As ive said in other posts, being average in an area (maneuverability) is not a weakness, and the courser would need a massive weakness to justfiy being so fast and being #1 in damage while only costing 19k.

And Kulin i addressed that stuff in other posts read them if you want an answer.

[Remy]

Yes i would put NA cav over Eu cav from one compeition, EU was not even beaten by our best cav, and the fact that they were beaten when the US players had atrocious ping (timing is very important in lancer cav fight) as some of if not all of them were on the west coast. EU should never have lost under those circumstances and still 1 win is more than EUs 0 so id have to put NA cav ahead of EU.

 

I find it silly that you have to turn this into some sort of "EU cannot play Calvary, hence they have no idea how unbalanced/balanced the Courser is"...

you get most of your damage when your cav from your horses movement speed, which i guess you don't know because you don't now very much about cavalry

This is something every HA knows and uses, considering we do our damnedest to add any damage to our poor, poor arrows through movement of both our enemy and ourselves...Overdriven is certainly not unknowledgeable about this fact.

(as far as i know everyone on this page so far is a courser user except me)

I use the Steppe, Arabian and Destrier horses. I have used even a +3 Courser but I did not enjoy losing my maneuverability.


Finally, saying that HA is mainly just a troll/delayer build is simply incorrect. Give a team two or three average HA or even one good one and watch as the enemy team loses at least a good portion of their cavalry.

You seem to have a bunch of faulty assumptions regarding the pros and cons of all the horses as well...( in regards to the usefulness of maneuverability, the ability to hit the various horses as ranged, survivability of coursers)

I also have no idea how you can offer some of these opinions considering in your own words "i dont know about the Arabian i havnt ridden one". 

[Elmetiacos]

Buff the courser. It is much too weak.

[Cris]

Courser does not need nerfing. It turns badly, dies fast if shot/hit when moving towards the target and it has already been nerfed (remember the lovely days when it was 50 speed from stock?)

You hate coursers because you cant catch them up or because someone in it is good enough to outmanuver you? Its your problem.

Eitherway this thread is pointless, paul already said no, so cry all you want. If anything make horses easier to upkeep Or give courser its speed back

Also, as a side note, last time we joined an NA server (mercs) we topped both sides as cav, melee and archers and in NA battles i find that a lot of the NA player (not all, some are very good) are below the standar that i see in EU servers. So your argument about EU players being bad cav is as silly as saying the courser needs a nerf.

[Overdriven]

Given that the courser has about has much hp and about as much armor as a destriter

I stopped reading after this...

I'll add on that I own every single horse in the game and have experience riding all of them. I've played both HA and lancer and have dabbled as a 1h cav some time ago. The only form I haven't tried is 2H cav. Can you say the same?

Heck the only reason I regularly ride a courser is because I've used it for 6 gens, heirloomed it to +3 and it is far more natural for me as I understand how to get the best out of it. However, if I could start again I'd likely pick the Arabian or Destrier as my horse of choice for reasons any cav player (bar you) would understand.

[Huey Newton]

LOLOLOLOLOL

Barely skimmed any of the other posts besides original one.
I can't tell if you're trolling or not, but here goes.


Point 1

Destrier: 42 base speed, 33 base charge.

Courser: 46 base speed, 24 base charge.

4 speed difference.  9 base charge damage difference. If we use even stupid simple algebra, for the
destrier
42+33= 75 = Y = destrier (lets use this number as a "score" for total charge damage

Courser
46+24= 70 = X = courser

75>70    Destrier > Courser in terms of charge damage.

The damage system isn't even a simple linear determinant like the one I posted, but works with the same percentages across the board. A 4 speed advantage will NEVER outweigh 9 more base damage.



Point 2


Speed bonus is a double edged sword, throwing weapons, arrows and bolts all have their own distance and base damage determinants, however if the target horse is moving faster, the speed bonus will be even greater. I'm sure you can wrap your mind around this concept. If not, i suggest you stop reading and go read some picture books.

Courser: base Hp and armor 
Hp: 100
Armor: 18

Lets use another score system similar to the charge damage one,
100+18= 118 = X

Destrier base Hp and armor
Hp: 120
Armor: 27

120+27= 147 = Y

147> 118

Y > X

Destrier > Courser

More hp and armor coupled with less speed, 42, compared to the coursers 46, which means less speed bonus when hit with melee or ranged weapons, means the destrier has survivability beyond that of the coursers in a duke it out take ranged hits test.


Point 3

Balancing the game around the most successful players in a specific class is an excellent way to kill the game.
You do understand this don't you?

Point 4

As if it even mattered for my argument at all, but I thought i'd post it anyways,

I play with a piece of shit laptop that runs me around 10-30 fps 99% of the time when playing, on top of that 80-95 range, ping and a wireless mouse.
Also I wear the same armor, all the time. People love to single me out and gun for me, with whatever ranged weapon or melee weapon, it may be.

Here comes the big E-peen cumshot
*Warning Arrogant Statement Incoming*

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If I had low ping and steadily high fps, I would completely annihilate battle servers even more than I already do. 55-2? that suddenly becomes 70-0
hahaha I usually get 40 percent of my kills on foot. Which leads me to another point, with all my handicaps i'm better than every person that plays Cavalry on a regular basis on foot, except for Dan_CHEATS. Who is better than me on foot than me fasho.

LOLOLOLL


Will read other posts when done studying for math test. God I hate math, but only one more semester of it, after

[Malaclypse]

Okay, taking a page from you, Lemmy, I didn't read your main post or this thread, but I'm pretty sure it's about nerfing the Destrier and I am for it. +1.

[Spanish]

Nerf destrier! And buff Arabian again! Because if I did that formula it end up like

Destrier>Courser>Arabian

So we need to balance this and put Arabian in front of the courser since it costs more money and riding! Im getting ripped off

And Huey it's time for doOlz  broski then you can say that about Dan cuz he does cheat