Equalize weapon master & agility builds

[CrazyCracka420]

Only give WPF when you put points into agility, this will make WM actually useful for non-archer builds (or people who don't need 3 Weapon proficiencies). 

[Spa_geh_tea]

The problem is the free wpf per level and that PS effect is very much based on speed bonus.

So in order to remove the desire 8 athletics jerks who have wonky hitboxes but can kill in 1-2 hits. And str mongers who can outswing agi players.

No prof for leveling, just wm gives prof.

Decrease effectiveness of low level PS and make am exponential curve for high level PS.

End result is, fast but weak or really slow and hard hitting. None of this I get both nomnomnom.

[Tydeus]

Just did 15/24, it's good for duels and it's decent for fighting multiple people in that you can just hold down the s key and be fine, but now that I'm 27/12, my effectiveness is just so much greater. Even though I'm a hell of a lot slower, I can still fight multiple people just as effectively and I can shrug off hits like it's nothing. Everything two shots you when you have 15 STR and 0 IF. Not to mention the added bonus of being able to use a bamboo spear reliably without glances, even on the overhead is great for adding to your versatility.

[Vkvkvk]

Just did 15/24, it's good for duels and it's decent for fighting multiple people in that you can just hold down the s key and be fine, but now that I'm 27/12, my effectiveness is just so much greater. Even though I'm a hell of a lot slower, I can still fight multiple people just as effectively and I can shrug off hits like it's nothing. Everything two shots you when you have 15 STR and 0 IF. Not to mention the added bonus of being able to use a bamboo spear reliably without glances, even on the overhead is great for adding to your versatility.

I'm with Tydeus on this one, I'm at heart an agility player, I played 12/27 and 15/24 builds for more than a year, they're incredibly fun, being quick and able to dance around is a great thing, dancing between enemy cavalry is great too, only real problem are good archers that doesn't really care about your speed but you can still do something about that, worst is having to fight circus fighters that spins around and instantly kills you on the backswing or because you glanced on their spinning black magic because you decided to use your speed to slash them in the back when they're busy dancing, bad mistake, I also find that jumping gives you +30 athletics for the duration of the jump, so I usually find myself running away from strenght pikers because they can jump back farther than I can run forward with 9 athletics and instantly kill me with the chainsaw haft of theirs, not to mention that even with full WM and 180 wpf in 2handed with a longsword isn't even enough to spam a pikeman unless they're a 2h 36/3 build with a pike in hand.

On the other hand, I've got a 24/15 alt and while my level of Fun isn't exactly on the same level of my agility builds, I'm just so much more viable at everything I do, I'm allowed a mistake or two without a problem at all, anyone I get offguard dies without the slightest hope of turning back and blocking with the exception of near full-strenght builds in heavy armor, killing people is just generally much easier, you're allowed mistakes and whoever you fight dies pretty quickly.

[rustyspoon]

San had an idea a while ago that I really like.

Reduce the amount of "free" WPF. Each point of agility gives you extra WPF.

[Tydeus]

not to mention that even with full WM and 180 wpf in 2handed with a longsword isn't even enough to spam a pikeman unless they're a 2h 36/3 build with a pike in hand.

The problem with wpf and wpp is that it's set up in such a fashion that makes it easier for high str, PS builds to hilt slash than a high agi, WM build. When you think about what hilt slashing is, the ability to get a second swing in before your opponent gets his, you realize quite obviously, that it is ultimately a matter of speed; The earliest possible time after you click to swing, that your swing will be able to damage your opponent. Because agi builds have less damage, they have to be farther into their swing arc to be able to have a hit that won't glance.

To go further still, hilt slashes aren't the only place where being able to effectively use, and rely on, an earlier position of your swing arc to hit someone, is made easier for high str builds. This applies to each and every one of your swings, even after you just blocked an enemies swing. Indeed everyone can turn into their swings, but str builds are able to hit far earlier than agi builds and not have to worry nearly as much about glances. So you have to ask the question, does 1 point in WM even make you effectively faster than 1 point in PS and if so, is that speed advantage enough to even be worth mentioning?

[Zerran]

Athletics is fine as it is, HOWEVER, weaponmaster is nearly useless unless you plan on putting WPF into more than 1 weapon type. Weaponmaster has an affect, but it's just so slight that really any other skill would be more valuable for those points instead.

[Vkvkvk]

The problem with wpf and wpp is that it's set up in such a fashion that makes it easier for high str, PS builds to hilt slash than a high agi, WM build. When you think about what hilt slashing is, the ability to get a second swing in before your opponent gets his, you realize quite obviously, that it is ultimately a matter of speed; The earliest possible time after you click to swing, that your swing will be able to damage your opponent. Because agi builds have less damage, they have to be farther into their swing arc to be able to have a hit that won't glance.

To go further still, hilt slashes aren't the only place where being able to effectively use, and rely on, an earlier position of your swing arc to hit someone, is made easier for high str builds. This applies to each and every one of your swings, even after you just blocked an enemies swing. Indeed everyone can turn into their swings, but str builds are able to hit far earlier than agi builds and not have to worry nearly as much about glances. So you have to ask the question, does 1 point in WM even make you effectively faster than 1 point in PS and if so, is that speed advantage enough to even be worth mentioning?

I honestly find that at this point, having higher WPF is only a gamechanger if you're fighting people with 120 ping and above as anything under that, the few milliseconds faster your swings are does no difference at all to them.

[Cyclopsided]

I honestly find that at this point, having higher WPF is only a gamechanger if you're fighting people with 120 ping and above as anything under that, the few milliseconds faster your swings are does no difference at all to them.

Considering the average player takes 210 ms or .21 of a second to react to an attack, and 190 WPF only hits 0.06 of a second faster than 110 wpf (94 speed weapon, faster weapon less effect wm has proportionally and absolutely)
and the attack window is around 350 ms total for most swings before they hit you
so, oh no, instead of 350 ms to react it is a whopping 6 ms faster, I have 344 ms to react. Subtract my 70 ping and 210 reaction time, the difference would be a 70 ms grace window of additional tiem to block vs a 64 ms grace window to block.
The speed is negligible, unless my ping is so high that that window of time gets smaller and smaller until I can't block if I wanted.

This also explains why latency is such a fuckhuge factor in cRPG for those who didn't realize it already
When i play with 30 ping I feel like i'm seeing the future compared to a typical 70-80 ping. 40-50 more ms to react, amazing.

[Digglez]

2 words:  three attributes


making 1 stat give both damage absorption and damage dealing is retard game design

[Old_Sir_Agor]

I see only 1 reason why people still go much agi - more WM to make some hybrid character with some xbow, I dont see any other reason to go agi, because some str tincan with long weapon is way better.

[zagibu]

2 words:  three attributes


making 1 stat give both damage absorption and damage dealing is retard game design

Simple but elegant, I like it.

[Deathwhisper]

I've already mentioned it in another thread, but maybe it could be balanced a bit if STR didn't give extra HP, and if IF was decoupled from STR. You could then make a 10 IF AGI char.

You'd have to increase significantly the amount of HP given by IF, otherwise you'd end up with only 55 hp even with 10 IF and people would die too fast. Hybrid builds which can't put many points into IF would also be left with between 35 and 50 hp at most (if IF gave 4 hp per point for example) while STR builds (and other pure builds), which only have to put points into PS and a few into ath, would still be able to afford a lot of IF and would still have much more hp than other builds. It just isn't a solution imo.

Regarding WM, you forgot to take the WPF reduction from armor into account. WPF has the most effect from 1 to 100 iirc (below 100 you actually deal less damage than normal), but a STR build (which obviously usually uses heavy armor) has barely 110 without any WPF, so he'll lose a lot of WPF due to this armor. For example, with playing with byrnie and light mail on my 36/3 STR build with 111 wpf, I've got about 100 wpf after the reduction from armor. When playing with the heaviest gear available (gothic with bevor, weimar helmet, heavy gauntlets & black greaves) it goes down to 60. And then I do see a big difference in speed and a slight one in damage.
Your agi build with 180 WPF probably wouldn't be using heavy armor, so you'd probably still have about 160-170 effective WPF. That's 100 more than the STR build in armor, so the speed bonus is much better and the agi build gains damage equal to about 2 PS.
Imo WPF is important for STR builds as long as you're using heavy armor, so that you still have about 100 effective WPF, if you're playing with light / medium armor it's probably not worth it. Agi builds do get a lot more speed if the STR build is playing in heavy armor (which is the case for most of them).

You're also not taking into account the fact that agi builds are much more polyvalent than str builds. STR does give you both damage & hit points, but that's the only things it gives you. You need STR for both PD & PT, but no one would play an archer / thrower with pure STR because you need a lot of WM (and thus agi) to hit anything. On the other hand, agi gives access to a lot of other roles (that pure STR can't do, but that pure agi & balanced builds can) like shielder, cavalry, archer, thrower, xbowman (because of the WPF requirements), hybrid builds (you won't have enough WPF for 2 weapons with 1 or 2 WM) and of course anything that requires speed (like rageball runner). The only role of a pure STR build will be to fight with the mob and do the killing (he's too slow to do anything else and will probably get gang banged alone) but he's obviously incredibly effective at it. Balanced builds will have a lot of obvious roles through shielders, cav, archers, etc... They're also able to play solo in battle and get away from tough situations while STR aren't.

The issue at the moment imo is that there aren't a lot of things that pure agi builds can do that is much better than what balanced builds would do. They're good as 13 ath runners in rageball or 13 shield trolls but that's about all. I don't think buffing WM would help them a lot, it'd probably benefit balanced builds much more.

[Cyclopsided]

What the fuck is this notion that strength builds need to or should use heavy armor?
It blows my mind that people think that is logical even.
The thing that makes strength builds so fucking amazing at melee is that when you use them in light armor they move with similar speed to a balanced build in medium-heavy armor EXCEPT they take the same amount of hits to die as the medium-heavy balanced build.
So, Similar movement, similar hits to die.
But the damage output. Strength build does sooo much more damage.
What cons? People wonder why I never wear much more than a gambeson yet take 4 hits + to die on brunchlady... in a dress.

Look, I don't need to convince anybody how OP it is, because I'm just going to sit here and enjoy it. If you guys actually nerfed it, I wouldn't be able to slaughter droves of people without being conscious.
And I like killing enemies without realizing it.

[Deathwhisper]

What the fuck is this notion that strength builds need to or should use heavy armor?
It blows my mind that people think that is logical even.
The thing that makes strength builds so fucking amazing at melee is that when you use them in light armor they move with similar speed to a balanced build in medium-heavy armor EXCEPT they take the same amount of hits to die as the medium-heavy balanced build.
So, Similar movement, similar hits to die.
But the damage output. Strength build does sooo much more damage.
What cons? People wonder why I never wear much more than a gambeson yet take 4 hits + to die on brunchlady... in a dress.

Look, I don't need to convince anybody how OP it is, because I'm just going to sit here and enjoy it. If you guys actually nerfed it, I wouldn't be able to slaughter droves of people without being conscious.
And I like killing enemies without realizing it.

You usually don't have more than 20-30 more hp than balanced builds if you're playing a 36/3 build with 10-11 IF. Using a gambeson will only let you take 1 more hit than a balanced build with the same armor, unless you're facing someone with very low PS who deals only 10 damage to someone with 20 armor... You're also forgetting that glances will almost never happen on someone with 20 armor while they will on the 40-50 armor a balanced build usually has. You might be as fast as them using a gambeson but you're certainly not as tough (except maybe against pierce / blunt).
With light armor having so many hp is not worth it (I'd rather have 5 ath and be very fast than having average speed in order to survive only 1 more hit). STR is viable without heavy armor but still, I wouldn't use anything below byrnie. You do keep very high damage but unlike balanced builds you aren't polyvalent at all so pure STR does have its drawbacks even with light / medium armor.