Crossbows and the Return of FPS

[Nemeth]

The "useless wpf" range should be much wider. You can get to 50 wpf by sacrificing, what, 5-10 wpf in your main weapon. I seriously think that crossbows should have some accuracy only when you invest over 100 points into them, or even more.

[Halevolm]

+1 for 100 wpf for effective crossbowing.

[Vibe]

Agree, there should be atleast 100 wpf in crossbow to aim properly.

[Tai Feng]

Its not like Im going to snipe anyone, but I can definitly start climbing a ladder with it, spot the archer at laddertop and headshot him with my 1 wpf. Dont really think its fair on him, he probably has dedicated himself to ranged, and I just bought this crossbow to be annoying.....

I don't see how that's different from taking a Pike just to fight off cavalry.

So you use 2 slots for expensive crossbow+bolts, which (if you're any good at being infantry) you will probably use once per round. That looks like a bad character build. You could've taken secondary melee weapon instead which would help you 10x more, or instead of IF put points in Power Throw and you'd be 10x more efficient.


Where are all these hordes of infantry guys who take crossbow as a backup weapon? I almost never see any.

I think a major issue is fairness> Lose a swordfight, you can only blame yourself, get shot in the back and you are much more annoyed since you had no chance to defend yourself.

If you lose a swordfight besides yourself you can also blame shared connection and wireless, both of which can drastically reduce the ability to fight in melee.
If you get shot in the back, you can also blame yourself because you had bad situational awareness and/or bad tactics. Of course, to players with FPS mentality, losing because of bad strategy should not happen - it's glitching, griefing, unfair, you name it. But not everyone playing MnB comes from FPS background, I for one played Strategy games.

I played on EU1 the other day and was appalled. In every frame I sent the first two minutes idling till the throwers have spent most of their ammo and the xbow hybrid my old friends took their cheap shots and came down from the roofs to fight.

That's exactly how the battle should look like.
And if you don't have a shield, don't maniacally charge at the enemy because you will get shot and it won't be anyone's fault but yours. Watch all good players and what they do at round start. They either flank, or they wait 30sec until throwers empty their ammo. Or, they use a shield.

Perhaps the only solution is to make two classes (YEH YOU HEAR IT RIGHT!): ranged & melee.

Why two classes? Why not 3 classes - cavalry included.

* if you choose ranged the cost of power-strike and shield skills are doubled

You forgot Athletics, because with your idea I would instead go for zero melee and 9-10 athletics. Just for the fun of it. And if you nerf Athletics be prepared to nerf Riding because you'll see a lot more of mounted crossbowmen. And if you nerf... you get the point

[Spawny]

Agree, there should be atleast 100 wpf in crossbow to aim properly.

I would love to see a 100 wpf minimum for every weapon to be able to use it properly.

You don't need wpf to hit someone with a throwing weapon from just 4 feet away, you don't need wpf to shoot someone with a crossbow from 4 feet away and you don't really need wpf in any weapon catagory as long as you pick a fast-ish weapon. Longswords, katana, sideswords, etc, all can be used quite effectively with very little wpf.

[Elmetiacos]

seriously grow up dude. Cross bows rarely kill anyone in so much as 2 hits and cost substancially more than any melee weapon ntm the steel bolts. They had their damage reduced by 30 (all of them) and are less accurate and slower. Just because a few non - fotm people stuck with the build and repeatedly kicked your ass does not justify a nerf

and yes i have been head shotted by darkkarma more times than i have braincells to count but the dill thumper has almost 180 prof

Seriously learn to read dude. At no point did I say crossbows are OP; I said that there are too many of them combined with all the archers and that this distorts the gameplay.

[Elmetiacos]

Where are all these hordes of infantry guys who take crossbow as a backup weapon? I almost never see any.

I started to notice a few days ago the amount of missiles flying had dramatically increased and that infantry were once again moving back to the pre-patch situation where, in most village maps, you spent the first minute or two hiding and hoping your side won the shooting match. At first I thought we just had more archers in play, but looking at it again I noticed that there were an awful lot of crossbows. Once again, this isn't because crossbows are OP; it's because the steep increase in wpf cost means specialisation is less effective than hybridisation.

[Tai Feng]

I started to notice a few days ago the amount of missiles flying had dramatically increased and that infantry were once again moving back to the pre-patch situation where, in most village maps, you spent the first minute or two hiding and hoping your side won the shooting match. At first I thought we just had more archers in play, but looking at it again I noticed that there were an awful lot of crossbows. Once again, this isn't because crossbows are OP; it's because the steep increase in wpf cost means specialisation is less effective than hybridisation.

You made me go check EU1 now.

I did not see any problem you describe. I saw a LOT more archers than crossbowmen (as usual). And I saw a LOT of non hybrids, or at least people who in this game did not take any ranged weapon.



In short, you charge into battle at round start without a shield and to you it seems like everyone and their dog is having a ranged weapon. Make analysis of the weapons used by people on a server, and then we can discuss this further.

[Duerkos]

I am playing my first character and I intended to be a pure 2h melee. Went for 132 2h 104 crossbow at last.

Why did i do this? If you play any of the camping maps while defending, and you are only melee, you have to wait 2-3 minutes to do actually something. With a crossbow, I can fire to players going alone, or at least shoot 2 quarrels while the whole enemy charges and then switch to my 2h. Otherwise I do nothing.

Also, I suck at blocking, seriously. I am trying to improve, but while improving I don't want to be unuseful to my team, so I usually go into "support mode", trying to shoot with my xbow if i can (meaning there's no way I do FF) or going to help someone fighting in 1vs1 situation with my 2h. When I fight myself a 1 vs 1 I die most of the time. So even if I want to be a melee player, my ranged skills are usually more useful (specially if there is no cooperation from the team).

Even doing this, I almost never kill people with the xbow, I usually hit 1 player in the charge (firing 2-3 quarrels) and then I go melee or stay with the crossbow depending on the circumstances.

When my team is attacking, and there are archers at rooftops and such, I usually try to aim for them. If they don't see me/ fire at me I stay ranged, otherwise I go melee and look for some cover.

In addition to all this, it is very effective for cavalry. It doesn't usually save you from lance cavalry, but if there are HA and your team got none, that way I can do something.

I am not trying to say it should be nerfed (it probably needs more wpf requirement to be useful), just trying to explain why I (a noob in this game) am using it right now. And it's not because it does a lot of damage or its OP, its because is useful (specially since I suck at melee) and it's not as boring as going pure melee.

In my clan, we have some melee/crossbow hybrids infantry. Since we don't use shields, we have more weight free, we shouldn't be the first at charge... So I guess bringing a crossbow is quite rational.

[Elmetiacos]

You made me go check EU1 now.

I did not see any problem you describe. I saw a LOT more archers than crossbowmen (as usual). And I saw a LOT of non hybrids, or at least people who in this game did not take any ranged weapon.

You're comparing a lunchtime battle on a Monday with less than 60 people with my experience when the server is close to full. Yes, I dropped in just now and there were only 2 or 3 crossbows. It isn't always like that.

[MouthnHoof]

You made me go check EU1 now.

I did not see any problem you describe. I saw a LOT more archers than crossbowmen (as usual). And I saw a LOT of non hybrids, or at least people who in this game did not take any ranged weapon.

In short, you charge into battle at round start without a shield and to you it seems like everyone and their dog is having a ranged weapon. Make analysis of the weapons used by people on a server, and then we can discuss this further.

(not directed at me but I support Elmetiacos view)
The problem exponentially increase with total number of players in the server (the absolute number of projectiles flying). I usually play one one of the servers with ~50 people, where the battles are much more interesting and the problem is not as severe. I do exactly as you describe - I wait till much of the ranged ammo is expended (boring), flank (assuming I survive the cavs buzzing about) and carry a shield. Then I play urban warfare: walk with me back to the walls, jump from cover to cover, peak around a corner and rush out of the other side - real fun... <sarcasm for those who did not get it>

No one is saying that the situation is unmanageable, just that it is not as fun as it could be. It's not like we complain about otther people "style". I bet my dinner that they the vast majority of casual xbow users just go the path of least resistance (Still waiting to see the guy in Samurai armor, huscarl shield, scimitar and xbow setup. Saw some who got close). I am also tempted to carry an xbow just to have something to do during those first two minutes, that I now just waste idling. With lots of showers and therapy I will be able to overcome the self loathing.

[Phazey]

I have both a light- and a sniper xbow. Almost never use them though... standing still and having no shield makes you a prime target for the other ranged classes. Usually i'm more effective behind my huscarl slashing my scimitar at people.

I regard the xbow as a specialist weapon that can be slightly useful when defending on siege-like battles. I don't get what the whine is about.

My advice? Get a decent shield... 

[Brutal]

Usually i'm more effective behind my huscarl slashing my scimitar at people.

This, xbow just grimp you most of the time, so let people play pew pew if they have fun doing it and learn to flank them

My advice? Get a decent shield... 

Or just dodge if you don't have one, it is pretty effective.

[Christo]

Or just dodge if you don't have one, it is pretty effective.

Not good enough. A good Crossbowman will laugh at you, and when you start dodging like crazy and you need to stop because you forgot where you are going now, he will pull the trigger.
They can simply lock-on to you and wait.

[Elmetiacos]

I do dodge (bows anyway) and I do sometimes go with a shield. I'm not complaining about getting shot. I expect to get shot. But things are now close to where we were with crossbows before the patch - every battle feels more like modern, or at least Napoleonic era, combat because of the massive amounts of shooting going on. It will never be quite as bad because bows are slower now, but nevertheless the end result of the increased wpf cost has been more hybrids which has meant a lot more crossbows, which means less talking, more raiding fighting, more shooting.