Author Topic: Gold is worhtless  (Read 13427 times)

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Offline gazda

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Re: Gold is worhtless
« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2012, 10:22:08 pm »
0
Gazda send all your money to some swiss player for safekeeping.

what money?
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Offline djavo

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Re: Gold is worhtless
« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2012, 10:26:00 pm »
+1
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Offline Kafein

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Re: Gold is worhtless
« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2012, 10:28:13 pm »
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Some of them, yes, sure. Some of them wont. That's what I mean - it will slow it down.

Yes that's the most reasonable scenario. But even then, it would only make a bigger difference between people that spend money when they play, compensating their losses by trading and selling heirloom points, and the people that play in cheap gear and use their money to buy the heirlooms. Not because the buyers get more money, but because at the same time the sellers need more money and their numbers are reduced because fewer people will want to play that way if upkeep is increased.

Offline okiN

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Re: Gold is worhtless
« Reply #18 on: March 20, 2012, 10:34:32 pm »
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I do not think that increasing the upkeep would increase the gold spent upkeeping tbh. If you increase upkeep, people will react and wear less equipment, possibly even reducing the total amount of gold lost due to upkeep in the end.

I think we need to offer new possibilities in order to slow down the inflation. Maybe 4th heirloom levels that can only be crafted from the +3 version with a shitload of gold (like... 5 million ?). Of course as the inflation continues, 5 million will probably become not so much, so we will have to invent yet another thing for players to spend their gold. But that's how inflation is regulated in all the games I know of. Another good idea is fiddling with the marketplace fees. By increasing them, you make people that use the marketplace pay for a part of the inflation. Even better, the amount of gold they loose through it depends on how extensively they use the marketplace, so this actually means that it directly takes most of it's money out of the trader's profit.

Finally, there should be more incentives towards retirement. Pretending that heirloom prices go up because the few very rich people that together make for a marginal part of the whole money in the game decide to spend a lot isn't just going to be true because people say it. Prices go up because ,in this case a the same time, the offer goes down because people stop retiring, and the demand goes up because the same people that stopped offering heirlooms to the market now want to buy some for themselves ! Thing is, the heirloom buyers that still wish to buy with current "crazy" prices have the majority of the money in their hands, not because they are very rich, but because they are many.

Exactly. On average, players will always tend to use a level of equipment that lets them make some gold through play.

However, that doesn't have anything to do with inflation. For inflation to arise from "insufficient" upkeep, it would have to mean that the average upkeep level is so low that people can earn more gold each generation than is the value of the heirloom point they also gain. Of course this is affected by the gold injected into the system by players who have stopped retiring, and thus continue to gain gold but not heirlooms.

Still, for that inflation then to be sustainable over a long period of time, that trend would also have to continue, which isn't really possible unless the average level of upkeep is also constantly decreasing and/or the amount being injected by non-retirees increasing at a fast enough rate to keep up with rising market prices.

Now, here's a bit of a thought experiment: assuming you're gen 1 and pay absolutely zero upkeep the whole time, then retire as soon as you hit 31, the maximum amount of gold you can gain in one generation of play is about 436k. Each generation decreases this amount, because the XP bonus reduces your gold gain relative to XP gain, eventually going as low as 300k per gen at gen16.

Now subtract upkeep. Depending on your gen bonus, each retirement will take between 6000 and 8700 ticks at x1. Assuming an average multiplier of 2 you can cut those in half to 3000 and 4350. You'll probably be paying upkeep every five ticks or so. Think how much upkeep you pay on an average round and do the math on that. How much do you think the average player really gains from each gen, at the end of the day? I'm pretty sure that even with all the gold coming in from the people who have stopped retiring, it'll be a lot less than 600k.

Something else is driving the inflation.
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Offline Digglez

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Re: Gold is worhtless
« Reply #19 on: March 20, 2012, 10:50:32 pm »
-1
I love the over the top sensationalized post subject, OP has job waiting for him at any number of media outlets!

Offline Kafein

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Re: Gold is worhtless
« Reply #20 on: March 20, 2012, 10:58:06 pm »
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I think there are two different but linked problems here. They are difficult to tell from another because heirlooms and gold is pretty much everything we got in our economy.

The problem clearly is that the gold value of heirlooms has skyrocketed, but this is both due to pure inflation of gold, and to a change in demand and supply.

If we define inflation as the evolution of the ratio of the total sum of all the gold owned by players divided by the number of players, then changing the rate at which people earn and loose gold due to gameplay clearly influences the inflation.

I think the price increase is more driven by a growing disbalance between players than by inflation. Players that stop retiring earn the most gold through playing and use that to buy heirlooms. They earn more gold directly from the game both because they are forced to anyway (no retiring means the side income is limited to pure trading) but also because level 31+ chars have a serious advantage over chars that spend half their time under 30 and the other half at level 30. The other group of players is those that retire and sell their heirloom points. (We don't really care about the group that retires and keep their looms because they don't interact.) I think that group is reducing in size, lowering the supply, and also becoming more aware of it's power over the prices. At the same time, the need for looms doesn't die off, as new people enter the 31+ phase every day.

So eventually people will start retiring again, because the prices will become really unbearable at some point, which will make them decrease again, and so on.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2012, 11:00:02 pm by Kafein »

Offline okiN

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Re: Gold is worhtless
« Reply #21 on: March 20, 2012, 11:09:32 pm »
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Players that stop retiring earn the most gold through playing and use that to buy heirlooms. They earn more gold directly from the game both because they are forced to anyway (no retiring means the side income is limited to pure trading) but also because level 31+ chars have a serious advantage over chars that spend half their time under 30 and the other half at level 30.

How you figure that? Retiring players generally get a slight income boost from the period where they're using lower gear while waiting to level up, whereas players who have stopped retiring will generally use their normal ("best") gear all the time. Also, while 31+ players may be harder-hitting on the battlefield, their income is still just as dependent on the team victory, and there will be some of these guys on both sides. They might get a somewhat higher multi on average, but I'm not sure it's significant.

Either way, I think it's very hard to deny that there's a huge discrepancy between average gold gain per a gen's worth of play and loom prices. You could assume that the pool of players actively participating in the market has a much higher proportion of non-retirees in it, and hence a higher supply of gold, but even so I have a difficult time imagining it'd be enough to make up for this huge difference. I think the prices aren't tied to the amount of gold in circulation so much as to how that gold is being used.
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Offline Grumbs

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Re: Gold is worhtless
« Reply #22 on: March 20, 2012, 11:18:13 pm »
+1
The inflation encourages everyone to hoard their stuff. Even if you don't need a particular item its better to put any excess gold into it and taking it off the market, depriving it of someone who may have genuinely needed it. Kind of a bad situation to be in
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Offline okiN

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Re: Gold is worhtless
« Reply #23 on: March 20, 2012, 11:32:19 pm »
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Well, actually, the optimal approach is to be constantly both buying and selling as much as you can. Hoarding allows you to keep up with inflation, but to turn a profit you need to keep the items moving as fast as possible. Buy low, sell high. It just needs a bit of persistence, a decent understanding of prices and quick and decisive action. The items keep moving, the traders make a profit, and everyone else has opportunities to buy what they want.
Don't.

Offline Kafein

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Re: Gold is worhtless
« Reply #24 on: March 20, 2012, 11:35:28 pm »
+1
How you figure that? Retiring players generally get a slight income boost from the period where they're using lower gear while waiting to level up, whereas players who have stopped retiring will generally use their normal ("best") gear all the time. Also, while 31+ players may be harder-hitting on the battlefield, their income is still just as dependent on the team victory, and there will be some of these guys on both sides. They might get a somewhat higher multi on average, but I'm not sure it's significant.

I don't really know for sure but when I see what is the gear people claim they break even with, I can really imagine that there are significant differences between players when it comes to average multi. Especially on low populated servers, one player can repeatedly win matches.

Either way, I think it's very hard to deny that there's a huge discrepancy between average gold gain per a gen's worth of play and loom prices. You could assume that the pool of players actively participating in the market has a much higher proportion of non-retirees in it, and hence a higher supply of gold, but even so I have a difficult time imagining it'd be enough to make up for this huge difference. I think the prices aren't tied to the amount of gold in circulation so much as to how that gold is being used.

I think a big majority of the retirements being done result in the player that retired selecting an item for his char and be done with it. There is little reason to retire, but even if you do, there is still little reason to sell your loompoint. Some people need it for their upkeep, others do that because it's more effective when you want a low priced item. My point is, heirloom points are not produced at a sustainable rate at the moment, which results in the prices going up.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2012, 11:36:39 pm by Kafein »

Offline HUtH

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Re: Gold is worhtless
« Reply #25 on: March 20, 2012, 11:54:23 pm »
+1

Hmm what about adding an option of "unlooming" items? Possibility to make from +3 item a +2 item and loompoint(and so on)? That's a serious move, because it'd add great flexibility to the market, which would change things drastically. I think it'd decrease value of loompoint to more stable level, and possibly it'd slowly go down alongside with more and more retired chars. But I'm not sure about this completely...

Also, if 'unlooming" had come true, an option to "unloom" item not to loompoint, but to money, would give devs power to adjust prices(in some range) on market by setting a value of loompoint(I wonder how chadz would set that...) - and by that the prices of already loomed items(generally about 400k for l-point would be appropriate, because of money one can gain in one gen, which varies around 400k depends on lvl) . But that kind of "central planning" together with easy unlooming would totally kill trading as it is today.

Sooo, well.. free market with different prices, inflation etc. or dull but stable controlled market.

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« Last Edit: March 20, 2012, 11:56:42 pm by HUtH »
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Offline Camaris

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Re: Gold is worhtless
« Reply #26 on: March 20, 2012, 11:59:21 pm »
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A market tax could be added. 10% TAX on every money transaction and the gold prices would drop soon.

Offline Mlekce

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Re: Gold is worhtless
« Reply #27 on: March 21, 2012, 12:10:46 am »
-1
limit max price for loomed items,and stimulate trading not selling gear.

Offline oprah_winfrey

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Re: Gold is worhtless
« Reply #28 on: March 21, 2012, 12:11:47 am »
-1
Increase gen bonus/ higher xp cap would also make loom points worth less.  :lol:

Offline Mlekce

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Re: Gold is worhtless
« Reply #29 on: March 21, 2012, 12:12:40 am »
+1
Hmm what about adding an option of "unlooming" items? Possibility to make from +3 item a +2 item and loompoint(and so on)? That's a serious move, because it'd add great flexibility to the market, which would change things drastically. I think it'd decrease value of loompoint to more stable level, and possibly it'd slowly go down alongside with more and more retired chars. But I'm not sure about this completely...

Also, if 'unlooming" had come true, an option to "unloom" item not to loompoint, but to money, would give devs power to adjust prices(in some range) on market by setting a value of loompoint(I wonder how chadz would set that...) - and by that the prices of already loomed items(generally about 400k for l-point would be appropriate, because of money one can gain in one gen, which varies around 400k depends on lvl) . But that kind of "central planning" together with easy unlooming would totally kill trading as it is today.

Sooo, well.. free market with different prices, inflation etc. or dull but stable controlled market.

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maybie unlooming isn't that bad idea,but i suggest adding some gold penalty or else market would be usless.