Rebalancing Daggers and Knives

[Cyclopsided]

This is a topic on the weapons that can not manual block such as the dagger, Long dagger, knife, Khyber knife, etc. These will all be referred to as daggers from here on.

This thread is to either:
1. Add higher tier [More expensive, more damaging] dagger(s) which have damage comparable to the other 1h swords.
2. Just buff the current daggers/knives in damage [and price?] so that they are comparable to current 1h sword damage.
However, with the damage buff, Add a penalty with shields for obvious balance & logical reasons.

Now, it is to my understanding that reason daggers are so nerfed in damage currently is that they are:
 A) Considered "Peasant" weapons and thus should have lower damage.
 B) To prevent them from being too effective with shields.
Point B Is solid reasoning -- however it punishes ALL users of the daggers rather than the specific intended people. This is why I am proposing that there should be a penalty with shields. Besides, it should & would be stupid as hell to use a dagger with a shield as effective as a sword.

Meanwhile, from Point A's perspective it does not make sense. Since there is no higher tier dagger in place, we just have largely useless weapons that aren't even effective for the amount of risk in using one. Currently the dagger weapons are the highest risk of all for a low reward. Currently, Daggers do way less damage, have super short reach but are a little faster. Being shorter but faster is an even trade off that goes without saying, but they shouldn't ALSO be nerfed in damage when they can't manual block. Besides, when were daggers ever used by peasants? Also: There is a specific peasant knife in the game meant to be the peasant weapon. Make the dagger/long dagger/knife/khyber knife more expensive so as to not be "peasant" weapons when they are rebalanced to be useful.

Here are some examples that I am suggesting:
Long dagger : Cost 300 --> ~2000
weight 0.25
requirement 0
spd rtng 112
weapon length 47
swing damage 23, cut
thrust damage 25, pierce ---> 28, Pierce (Which is one less than the long/ espada eslanova. I'd put it to 29 to be even in damage but maybe that is asking for too much.)
+add Penalty with Shield

Khyber Knife : Cost 406 --> ~2100
weight 0.4
requirement 0
spd rtng 108
weapon length 60
swing damage 24, cut  ---> 30, cut (This is in line with the average cut oriented sword and less than a lot of them in cut damage.)
thrust damage 17 pierce
+add Penalty with Shield

*rebalance other ones accordingly.

***EDIT: [ http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,2805.msg49517.html#msg49517 ] Is a post on the second page with another option that does not put penalize shielders as my above option apparently would, make sure you read the whole thread as this is a rather good debate thread.

[Tigerclaw]

I like it. Would be interesting to see more daggers being used by ninja/assassin style characters.

[Solidox]

I love to play with a long dagger only and wear clothes to match the area. Just hide in corners wait for someone to walk by obliviously then just jump behind them and tear into their back with relentless swings. Just ask anyone who was on the NA server yesterday when The rest of the Ootl's and myself were doing it. It was amazing fun. I am in favor of this idea.

[Cyclopsided]

I like it. Would be interesting to see more daggers being used by ninja/assassin style characters.

Yeah, it would both make a lot more sense & be more skillful on the part of the assassin. Besides, it is stupid that all the ninjas/assassins run around with katanas and longswords when they never would.

[Blondin]

I guess dagger is a dagger, not a fastest sword, otherwise for more damage it should have more lenght, and then become a short sword.
Btw assassins used short sword too.

In balance terms, you can't have speed and damage too (example wazigachi).

I guess that's why daggers are made like this now.

But it's not the first thread to ask a buff on daggers (even in old forum) so may be it is already in the next patch (or not and will never be).

[Spawny]

I agree. The long dagger should have pretty high stabbing power.

Yesterday I saw Nemeth. He chambered an attack with his dagger and killed the guy. A moment of pure awesomeness if you ask me.

The only way people can use daggers effectively would be by chambering anyway.

Again, I'm all for it.

[Dravic]

Well, Marathon stated this few times already. She learned how to chamber attacks just to pwn people with stones, daggers and knives.

I already did few posts/threads about buffing daggers, but this one is awesome even more.

101% agreed. Please, BUFF DAGGERS. Lenght is ok, just buff it.

[Chasab]

i don't want to be that guy but if someone wielding a dagger went to chamber someone swinging a sword, the person with the dagger would break their wrist.

[Cyclopsided]

I guess dagger is a dagger, not a fastest sword, otherwise for more damage it should have more lenght, and then become a short sword.
Btw assassins used short sword too.

In balance terms, you can't have speed and damage too (example wazigachi).

I guess that's why daggers are made like this now.

But it's not the first thread to ask a buff on daggers (even in old forum) so may be it is already in the next patch (or not and will never be).

I was waiting for someone to post with this reasoning.
There is a trade off of speed for weapon length and (sometimes) less damage. However, since they lose the ability to manual block they should not also suffer such a severe damage penalty. Sure, if they could manual block then they SHOULD have lower damage as a result of having higher speed. Do note that I am not asking for them to have Absolute top tier ultra damage anywhere in this thread, but rather to be in line with normal swords in damage.

I'm not even getting into the debate about "Well, daggers are actually sharpened and swords are actually blunt back in the day so they should do more damage." Mainly because it is irrelevant in a game where balance is king.

Side note for everyone here : You can't spam with daggers. They are fast, but since they have almost no weight, when they are blocked they get stunned really long and the dagger user can't swing again very quickly. if you are facing a dagger, if you just block and then swing you will probably win.

i don't want to be that guy but if someone wielding a dagger went to chamber someone swinging a sword, the person with the dagger would break their wrist.

Considering you can chamber with fists in game, I think it is well agreed upon that you are using your offhand to simple grab the enemy's wrist and hit them. Also, realism on that note is why things like the Long Iron Mace had crush through, guess what is getting removed for balance?

>edited for clarity & more info

[Chasab]

i don't think i have ever seen someone block a large weapon with a dagger in real life, because its just not physically possible. Daggers/knives are Shallow cuts, and piercing, where as sword/axes are deeper cuts, piercing. go take a knife and with one swing slice through a turkey leg, you wont be able to because swinging it that way wont give you the force required, the same issue comes when Blocking an incoming blow with a small weapon, There is minimal area for the force to be displaced, so once something hits your knife/dagger, all of the force you flow down into your hand. you will either lose your grip on the knife, or break your wrist.

Fighting with a dagger is all about avoiding attacks and counter attacking, not about blocking/parrying/chambering.

[Nemeth]

i don't think i have ever seen someone block a large weapon with a dagger in real life, because its just not physically possible. Daggers/knives are Shallow cuts, and piercing, where as sword/axes are deeper cuts, piercing. go take a knife and with one swing slice through a turkey leg, you wont be able to because swinging it that way wont give you the force required, the same issue comes when Blocking an incoming blow with a small weapon, There is minimal area for the force to be displaced, so once something hits your knife/dagger, all of the force you flow down into your hand. you will either lose your grip on the knife, or break your wrist.

Fighting with a dagger is all about avoiding attacks and counter attacking, not about blocking/parrying/chambering.

Noone is asking for the possibility to manual block with daggers and balance has never been about realism. Daggers were commonly used to kill even plated guys, they deserve to have better thrusting damage.

[Vygar]

i don't want to be that guy but if someone wielding a dagger went to chamber someone swinging a sword, the person with the dagger would break their wrist.

Depends. 

If you tried to counter a sword with a small and light weapon and tried to match brute force with brute force you'd likely come out on the losing end.  However, a dagger is quite capable of redirecting that force so that the wielder only absorbs a small portion of the impact. 

[Grey]

Fighting with a dagger is all about avoiding attacks and counter attacking, not about blocking/parrying/chambering.

When I get involved in a knife fight in real life I just press X and throw it at my enemies.

On a serious note, why cant throwing daggers be use in melee? I would make dagger class immedietly.

[Chasab]

When I get involved in a knife fight in real life I just press X and throw it at my enemies.

On a serious note, why cant throwing daggers be use in melee? I would make dagger class immedietly.

If this goes in, i should be allowed to throw my scimitar.

[Bear]

throwing scimitars O_O
I WANT DAT SHIT IN!