Reintroduce PENALITIES for TK's

[jspook]

You misunderstand me and my intentions.  I dont care, usually when I get TK'ed.  And I am the first person typing out srry when I smash in a team mates face.

you are also incorrectly assuming that winning has ANY bearing on your upkeep.

It doesnt.  at all.

I have won 8 or 9 times in a row and had upkeep on every single round.  your gear has a 4% chance per item per minute to break.  regardless of win status.  Also, if you die within the first minute of the round you are highly unlikely to have broken equipment.  because:  its 4% per item, per minute that you are alive

So when I am near the end of a very good round and someone decides to "help" me win a fight, I really dont appreciate also having to pay for my gear.

Yes, I would have had to pay for it at the end of the round regardless.

So what.  It still serves at a decent monetary deterent

[Heroin]

You misunderstand me and my intentions.  I dont care, usually when I get TK'ed.  And I am the first person typing out srry when I smash in a team mates face.

you are also incorrectly assuming that winning has ANY bearing on your upkeep.

It doesnt.  at all.

I have won 8 or 9 times in a row and had upkeep on every single round.  your gear has a 4% chance per item per minute to break.  regardless of win status.  Also, if you die within the first minute of the round you are highly unlikely to have broken equipment.  because:  its 4% per item, per minute that you are alive

I'm breaking this down into 2 parts.

First, winning halves the % chance of your item breaking. It was an update that happened shortly after they introduced the 4% figure. Can your equipment still break if you win? Absolutely, but it's less likely that you'll be repairing 6 items.

Second, it's 4% per item, per minute, period. It doesn't matter whether you're alive or dead during that time, from all of the information I've ever seen. I may be wrong on this second point, as I haven't tested it or looked at the code, but I've done a lot of reading. Also, I recall many times while wearing full plate and riding a cataphract, I'd get lanced off my horse at the start of a round and have to pay for all my stuff breaking. That does not seem to be in line with what you're suggesting.

[jspook]

every time I have died within the first 30 sec of a map, whether from spawn tk or from a flying object in the face, I have never once in the last 3 months had to pay upkeep.  thats not luck.  Thats consistency.

[Tears of Destiny]

every time I have died within the first 30 sec of a map, whether from spawn tk or from a flying object in the face, I have never once in the last 3 months had to pay upkeep.  thats not luck.  Thats consistency.

Yup, remember that the XP/Gold tick is the exact same tick as the repair tick. Thus, if you manage to die before the first tick, the trigger for damaged items never effects you.

EDIT: First tick at 30 seconds, and one additional tick per 60 after that.

[Heroin]

every time I have died within the first 30 sec of a map, whether from spawn tk or from a flying object in the face, I have never once in the last 3 months had to pay upkeep.  thats not luck.  Thats consistency.

Not if other people aren't experiencing the same trend. I have experienced upkeep costs in the same situation. And as horrible as I am in lancing duels, I'd venture to say I've probably died in the first minute of the game more often than you.

[Tears of Destiny]

Not if other people aren't experiencing the same trend. I have experienced upkeep costs in the same situation. And as horrible as I am in lancing duels, I'd venture to say I've probably died in the first minute of the game more often than you.

You are saying something different then him. You are saying dying within the first minute, he is saying within the first 30 seconds. Since the first tick is at 30 seconds, he is avoiding it, where as you are not.

[Korgoth]

I dont think tking is a problem though, they happen here and there, not even this penalty would stop that- tk's happen both due to the tker and the guy getting tked- all in all shit happens

Well back when people lost ALOT of XP and Gold for Tks. I never really cared about getting TKed because I just thought about how much he is raging about the XP and Gold he lost.

[IG_Saint]

I dont think tking is a problem though, they happen here and there, not even this penalty would stop that- tk's happen both due to the tker and the guy getting tked- all in all shit happens

I disagree. Certainly on the EU servers alot of people just aren't careful around teammates anymore. When it's rare to go a full round without a teammate hitting you, it's time to reintroduce TK penalties. Also it would be lovely if a smaller penalty could be introduced for teamhits. Dying because a teammate hit you causing you to lower your block, happens alot more than actual TKs.

[jspook]

I disagree. Certainly on the EU servers alot of people just aren't careful around teammates anymore. When it's rare to go a full round without a teammate hitting you, it's time to reintroduce TK penalties. Also it would be lovely if a smaller penalty could be introduced for teamhits. Dying because a teammate hit you causing you to lower your block, happens alot more than actual TKs.

Agreed.  once again:

The rules are there to serve as a deterrent and make it fun for the majority of the population.
But unless SOME rule is in place, then the majority of the population will continue to abuse the current system.

[Heroin]

Agreed.  once again:

The rules are there to serve as a deterrent and make it fun for the majority of the population.
But unless SOME rule is in place, then the majority of the population will continue to abuse the current system.

Who is abusing the system? People who accidentally TK you now will still accidentally TK you if there is a penalty, unless the penalty is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO prohibitive and scary that no one would ever dare to take ANY risk at all, which would make the game utterly retarded. Some of you people act as if other players are INTENTIONALLY not being careful because there is no penalty. I can assure you, this is not true with 95% of the cases where someone is accidentally hit/TKed. If you want to totally STOP accidental TKs from happening, just make it so that if you hit a teammate on accident, you're lowered back to level 1. There. No one will ever accidentally TK again. And no one will ever help you in a fight. So don't bitch when you're fighting 3 guys alone while 4 of your teammates stand by and watch, because they're all afraid of what MIGHT happen if they try to help you.

And no matter what penalty you put in place, TKers/Trolls will still TK you at spawn if their objective is to grief you. That is why it's far more effective to KICK/BAN intentional TKers than to put in ANY automated system for punishing TKs.

[jspook]

No one here, NO ONE, is suggesting the extremes to which you are taking this.

A minor penalty (ranging from very minor gold hit to just plain keeping track of it on the stats pages, and posting publicly the worst offenders) would make a lot of people just that much more careful in a mele.

I, personally, am a huge offender and run wildly into a mele with my 2H.  And I wouldn't mind having to pay a small penalty every time I screw up.  Thats what a penalty is.  No one is talking about a game altering change that will erase all team efforts.  In fact, knowing that your team mates are going to be more careful of their surrounding will probably inspire a lot MORE teamwork as people work together to corner people.

Right now I let polearm users and shielders die, because I know if I go in to help they will just kill me and not care one way or the other.  People just swing away without bothering to find out who is near, and other than their personal k/d it doesnt effect a damn thing.  I should know.  I do it all the time.

Personally, I would rather have a system like AA that lets the tk'ed person decide on whether or not to make the offender sit out the next round.  This solves a lot of issues, and you wouldnt see the rampant tk revenge sprees that happen in most spawn areas.  because a lot of people would be sitting out.  thats a good thing.

[IG_Saint]

Some of you people act as if other players are INTENTIONALLY not being careful because there is no penalty. I can assure you, this is not true with 95% of the cases where someone is accidentally hit/TKed

And no one will ever help you in a fight. So don't bitch when you're fighting 3 guys alone while 4 of your teammates stand by and watch, because they're all afraid of what MIGHT happen if they try to help you.

And no matter what penalty you put in place, TKers/Trolls will still TK you at spawn if their objective is to grief you. That is why it's far more effective to KICK/BAN intentional TKers than to put in ANY automated system for punishing TKs.

The first bolded part is exactly what I'm saying yes, and since I have just as much proof as you (i.e. none): 95% of accidental hits/TKs are caused by people not caring whether or not they hit their teammates.

In regards to the second bolded part, did this ever happen with the old system? Not that I recall.

The last bolded part: a punishment system wouldn't be to punish intentional TKers (thats what admins are for), it would be to encourage people to be more careful with their swings.

Also, I'd like you to consider that maybe the situation, in regards to TKs, is completely different on the EU servers vs the US.

And lastly, like jspook said: minor penalty, nothing earth shattering, but enough to encourage people to watch their bloody swings.

[Heroin]

No one here, NO ONE, is suggesting the extremes to which you are taking this.

A minor penalty (ranging from very minor gold hit to just plain keeping track of it on the stats pages, and posting publicly the worst offenders) would make a lot of people just that much more careful in a mele.

#1, I KNOW no one is suggesting the extremes I am. That's why it won't work.

#2, A MINOR penalty will not do anything. People won't be more careful. If you are claiming that you TK now because there is no penalty, then you're the exception rather than the norm. The rest of us TRY not to TK teammates, while still attempting, to the best of our ability, to help our team win.

So my point is, why even have developers put effort and time into coding something that isn't going to be useful either way?

And no one will ever help you in a fight. So don't bitch when you're fighting 3 guys alone while 4 of your teammates stand by and watch, because they're all afraid of what MIGHT happen if they try to help you.
In regards to the bolded part, did this ever happen with the old system? Not that I recall.

And there weren't less TKs under the old system either. It still happened about the same as it does now. Don't believe me? Check with chadz, see what the numbers say.

My entire point is, you can't scare people into being careful unless the punishment is scary. And if you're not willing to go there(I'm not), then stop trying. It's effort wasted.

[IG_Saint]

#1, I KNOW no one is suggesting the extremes I am. That's why it won't work.

#2, A MINOR penalty will not do anything. People won't be more careful. If you are claiming that you TK now because there is no penalty, then you're the exception rather than the norm. The rest of us TRY not to TK teammates, while still attempting, to the best of our ability, to help our team win.

So my point is, why even have developers put effort and time into coding something that isn't going to be useful either way?

I disagree, I think a slap on the hand wil work fine. Also how much works is it? There used to be a TK penalty, all it needs is some tweaking to the new system.

Example: today I was shot by a friendly archer just as I was about to backstab an enemy. The archer had no reason to shoot at that enemy, as I what about to backstab him, but clearly the archer wanted the kill. A TK penalty might make the archer think twice about shooting at an enemy that is about to get backstabbed.

And there weren't less TKs under the old system either. It still happened about the same as it does now. Don't believe me? Check with chadz, see what the numbers say.

My entire point is, you can't scare people into being careful unless the punishment is scary. And if you're not willing to go there(I'm not), then stop trying. It's effort wasted.

I'd quite like to see those numbers. My impression is TKs have gone up. If indeed they haven't, I'd have to agree with you that's it's pointless implementing a penalty again.

[Heroin]

I disagree, I think a slap on the hand wil work fine.

A TK penalty might make the archer think twice about shooting at an enemy that is about to get backstabbed.

No, it won't. And no, it won't, unless the punishment is scary. Also, some of the most epic moments in this game occur when people take risks.

EXAMPLE: My teammate was in a fight 1v1, and won. Standing victorious, he was facing in the direction where most of the enemies were located. However, a ninja was creeping up behind him to stab him in the back. He looked at me, and it appeared I had my Xbow aimed straight at him. He began to raise his shield just as I fired a bolt over his shoulder. BOOM, HEADSHOT! The dishonorable ninja died, and I saved my teammates life.

If there were such a steep penalty in place that it was scary to take that shot, such epic moments would cease to exist. And if the penalty is only slight, then it will make no difference, except that devs put time into the code for nothing.

Also, I replied to your other post by editing it into the post above.

EDIT: A little background info on Heroin: When I started playing cRPG, I was a complete noob to warband in general. I had only owned the game for a week. When I was playing in my first couple days, a guy wasn't careful an TKed me. As I had seen most people in the game apologize when they TKed someone, this guy didn't. So I said something to the effect of, "No apology?" The guy proceeded to kill me at spawn every single time I spawned for the next 2 weeks. Once I had learned to play, and semi-competently defend myself, he had his buddy join in with him to TK me. It was so bad that I could not even play the game if these two guys were on. And any time I said anything about it on chat, they would accuse me of attacking them, to make me look like the bad guy to the public/admins. I recall spending HOURS being TKed over and over by those guys, with nothing I could do about it, until I discovered the forums. That entire situation happened under the old-school XP penalty that you're asking for.