Reintroduce PENALITIES for TK's

[Zisa]

I don't know man.  I shoulda SS'd it but last night I was in a map where Zisa was -4 and 6.  Someone else had -3 and two people -2 one person -1.  It was just silly and it was revenage kills they were legit accidently TK's or at least they the people said they were.  There were 2 admin logged in the map at the time.  Also keep in mind they might have had way more TK's b/c you do go from -1 to 0 with one enemy kill!

 And like I was saying it's just the tk's that are the problem but the rape FF on your teammates and at least a TK penalty would make people try and aviod it.  That is just one example i can think of that happened last night.  No telling how much FF dmg was done during that map!

wtf you bring me into it this for? Some guy leeched for 3 hours, causing draws at which time I started wrecking ladders, no tk's, though it would have meant didly to me if he had died on the way down. Next round out of the blue a whole clan decides attacking me is ok, so a couple of them had to die, but it might have been mistaken identity on thier part, as many were feeling hostile by that point. I hold no animosity towards any of them. I don't care about draws from maneuvering, but causing a draw due to an inability to creatively play a peasant tends to piss me off.

On the tk subject, YOU did admit you are as bad as the next in 'accidental' tk's, well, you are. Try a katana , shorter range means less tk's. Also, I dub thee Fromunda, because it suits you.

He musta said 'reflective sucks nononono' because someone is bound to suggest it, and is it that time of the month already that this comes up again?

[Centurion]

Yes reintroduce penalties.

[Punisher]

Best TK penalty would be getting no gold/xp ticks for the remainder of the round after you TK'ed. This way tking at spawn or in the early clusterfuck is discouraged while accidental tk's in the end (at the equipment screen for example) don't get penalized.

[Kalam]

I agree, friendly fire penalties might be needed to make people more aware of their surroundings.

When I came back I noticed not only the little skill most people have, as opposed to what I remember...

As someone who likes to tailor his play style to specific individuals, I try to keep tabs on everyone who can manual block well, has good footwork, and is capable of chamber blocking. I've got to say that I believe there are more of them now than there ever was. I don't know about you, but I recall cutting through swathes of randoms who couldn't even block the first counter-attack back then, something which I don't see as much of, unless it's in the siege server- where a lot of new pubbies tend to congregate, for some reason.

You'd see someone who could actually block the majority of hits and you'd go 'hmm, that's someone with skill'. Now, I'd say more people block than not, and it's mainly down to the other factors.

I think it's self-evident in the lack of 'heroes' who can always be relied upon to mow over the entire enemy team. All you have to do is look at the most skilled players of that time and compare how they were doing then to how they're doing now, and it's clear.

[jspook]

What about: you Tk'd me? Well at the end of round YOU will pay my upkeep cost!
Eh!? Eh!?

Actually, thats probably the best idea I have seen on these forums with regards to the tk system.
It still doesnt solve the trolling issue, but trolls will be trolls no matter what you do.

I have been an adamant detractor against tk penalties, but this kind of system would actually make much more sense.  After all, how many times have you been tk'd in your good gear and then had to pay upkeep on top of it?  I know I have.  almost every time, in fact.  I would be willing to pay the penalty fee.  at least this solves the problem of double penalizing the offended party.

[Zisa]

Actually, thats probably the best idea I have seen on these forums with regards to the tk system.
It still doesnt solve the trolling issue, but trolls will be trolls no matter what you do.

I have been an adamant detractor against tk penalties, but this kind of system would actually make much more sense.  After all, how many times have you been tk'd in your good gear and then had to pay upkeep on top of it?  I know I have.  almost every time, in fact.  I would be willing to pay the penalty fee.  at least this solves the problem of double penalizing the offended party.

That is the best suggestion yet - I would LOVE to pay the upkeep for the poor bastard I just tk'd by my stupidity.

[Marblecake]

YES!

Great idea. TK'er having to pay upkeep for TK'ee. Love it.

[Blondin]

Yeah, good idea, but again there is troll...
Almost at the end of the round you will see a troll jump in front of you to be tk, and you will pay his upkeep... Fail...

I guess majority of tk are accidental and majority of players are sorry when they tk, and know that it's not good for the team (to win a round) but a troll is still a troll... There is nothing to do, except ban from admins.

[Heroin]

...and again, just like in several other threads on this: why don't we dump this kill-based BS and move to hitpoints-based?
The server records the hitpoints for every blow/shot/etc. anyways, so should not be a big deal.

Because the server does NOT record WHO did the damage. This is the same reason why "assists" cannot be shown or recorded. It is just how the M&B engine works.

And I don't think we need a TK penalty at all. It's not even an issue of being "careful". Accidents happen. I'd say at least half the time, those accidents are the "victim's" fault for having poor situational awareness. As a melee fighter, it is YOUR JOB to know the position of archers/crossbowmen behind you who are aiming at the enemy. If you walk in front of them as they release a shot aimed at someone else, have no illusions blinding you from the truth; It is your fault for being shot.

Since intentional TKs are still against the rules on all servers, individuals who violate that rule may be kicked/banned.

TK penalties would be the biggest griefing tool for griefers ever. Think about it. No matter what type of system you use, griefers can abuse it.

Standard gold/xp penalty for a kill? Ok, let's say I'm a griefer; I spawn in naked with a knife and run around jumping in front of archers shots. Reflective damage? Same deal. What's this? You pay my upkeep if you TK me? GREAT! I spawn with 150k in gear, run around killing people till there are like 4 enemies left, then I find someone to jump in front of to make them kill me! HAVE FUN FOOTING THE BILL my old friend!!!! LOLOLOLOL

EDIT: The above scenario doesn't even address the issue of someone who has no money, and plays with buddies on the siege server. All his buddies spawn with their best gear on, line up, and naked, he kills them all with successive face shots from his 900 gold pike. Now he is responsible for the upkeep of 5 guys who get multiple free respawns in platemail with sniper crossbows and flamberges, but it doesn't matter because he has 0 gold anyhow, and the system doesn't let you get negative gold. Welcome to CRPG without upkeep again.

[jspook]

Dude,

no matter what you do.  no matter what system you put in place.  there will always be people there to abuse the system.
The rules are there to serve as a deterrent and make it fun for the majority of the population.  There will always be Baltons and other morons doing their best to grief otherwise happy people.
That is why we have administrators.
But unless SOME rule is in place, then the majority of the population will continue to abuse the current system.

I think the current system is fine for siege servers.  siege is hectic and bottlenecked, and you respawn in 10-20 sec anyway.  I dont care about being tk'ed or about upkeep on siege.  I think siege is fairly balanced as a playstyle.

I DO however think we need a change regarding how tk's are treated in Battles.
I only have ONE life per round.  I dont dont want to be tk'ed for it, and THEN pay a penalty for my gear on top of it.  and visa versa.  it's rather unfair, actually, in that setting.

And in the situation you outlined, that guy AND all of his buddies would still have to be alive at the end of the battle.  I just dont see that happening very often in a battle server.  Not to mention that EVERYONE in the server would watch it happen at the end of the round and those guys would get BANNED fairly quickly.

so again.... not a problem as I see it.

[Hirlok]

Because the server does NOT record WHO did the damage. This is the same reason why "assists" cannot be shown or recorded. It is just how the M&B engine works.

oooops - wasn't aware of this. Hard to imagine & does not make sense - but if that is how it works, than that is how it works. ;-)

[Delro]

I don't know man.  I shoulda SS'd it but last night I was in a map where Zisa was -4 and 6.  Someone else had -3 and two people -2 one person -1.  It was just silly and it was revenage kills they were legit accidently TK's or at least they the people said they were.  There were 2 admin logged in the map at the time.  Also keep in mind they might have had way more TK's b/c you do go from -1 to 0 with one enemy kill!

 And like I was saying it's just the tk's that are the problem but the rape FF on your teammates and at least a TK penalty would make people try and aviod it.  That is just one example i can think of that happened last night.  No telling how much FF dmg was done during that map!

Maybe it was a map with a lot of falling? You can get -4 or more if you keep falling into the abyss, like on that one castle map with the gap between the bridges, or if you're just fuckin around exploring new ninaj routes. Negative kills aren't just from TK's

[Heroin]

And in the situation you outlined, that guy AND all of his buddies would still have to be alive at the end of the battle.  I just dont see that happening very often in a battle server.

That's not true, man. That specific situation was outlined as occurring on the siege server. They could do it at the beginning of the round, and since upkeep doesn't kick in until the end of the round, they'd all just respawn and the naked guy would be responsible for their upkeep for the rest of the siege round.

And so far as your 1 life in battles go, if someone is intentionally TKing you, that is against the rules. Ask for an admin, and the offender will be warned/kicked/banned. If it's an accident, then relax, and move on with your day. Accidents happen. If you get all uptight about it, you're just going to ruin your own experience. It's like people that get upset about being TKed at the end of the round...why? Who really gives a shit? The round is over. It makes no difference except for you having ONE more death in the death column, and the offender having ONE less kill in the kill column. It's all superficial.

Chill out. Relax. It's all in good fun. If it's an accident, don't hold a grudge. For those who rage at people that accidentally TK them, practice the following, and it will make you feel better:

Whenever someone accidentally TKs you and appologizes, type out "No problem, it happens. "

If you do this, and legitimately be light-hearted about the entire situation, I think you'll find that being TKed is much less of an issue than you currently think it to be. Unless you're playing a super-low strength build where you get TKed by glancing friendly strikes all the time, which IS frustrating, but comes with the territory of playing a low strength character.

Even if we introduced TK penalties, it would not lower the number of "accidental" TKs unless the penalty was so prohibitive that it made people not want to help their allies for fear of the penalty.

And I'd venture to say it wouldn't lower the number of intentional TKs at all. So that being the case, I think the best solution is to let it bother you less, and let the current system of punishing intentional TKers do it's job.

P.S. You do know dying does NOT have anything to do with your upkeep costs, right? It doesn't increase your chances of something breaking if you die. The only thing that matters is whether or not your team wins.

[Felagunda]

I think the current system is fine for siege servers.  siege is hectic and bottlenecked, and you respawn in 10-20 sec anyway.  I dont care about being tk'ed or about upkeep on siege.  I think siege is fairly balanced as a playstyle.

I do think siege should be left out of such a system.  At first I was just thinking maybe it should but after really thinking about it deffinatly should.

[Felagunda]

Even if we introduced TK penalties, it would not lower the number of "accidental" TKs unless the penalty was so prohibitive that it made people not want to help their allies for fear of the penalty.

And I'd venture to say it wouldn't lower the number of intentional TKs at all. So that being the case, I think the best solution is to let it bother you less, and let the current system of punishing intentional TKers do it's job.

P.S. You do know dying does NOT have anything to do with your upkeep costs, right? It doesn't increase your chances of something breaking if you die. The only thing that matters is whether or not your team wins.

I do know that dying doesn't affect my upkeep cost but yes it prevents me from killing that round which can help lead to a loss.

Now seeing as how FF is already set to 50% and somehow (generally guessing) I would say 25% of my damage is done by a teammate I am already to the point where when I see a 2h  or pole user spamming like mad I do not help them b/c I know it will only lead to FF and then death.  Take last night for an example Dan and some other 2h guy were going trying attacking some guy I had a war spear and Knightly heater shield.  I told Dan in vent I was not going to help b/c that other guy was recklessly spamming .  I step away and within 5 secs of having said that Dan had been killed by this person.   BTW other team ended up winning that round and we had 3 TK's, no clue how much team damage that map.  There was only  33 people in the server.

So me personally I am already to the point I don't help many people b/c  they can't be helped.  My shield would not have protect me from my teammates in that case.

Also the current system of punish tkers is a joke imo.  ATS has tons of admins I am pretty sure there was 8 or more of us in the vent when me and another ATS were getting attack over and over again by some guy for no reason.  I asked for a warning.  The whole time I was shield up trying to protect the other ATS.  I did finally stab the guy but before I did that I was in chat saying WTF stop attacking you can get ban for this.

No admins on me people don't get punish.  Admins can't live online.  They often don't even issue warnings or take actions unless they see the actions.  When they do issue such warning or take actions it's b/c the admin was notified by a member of a clan that so and so did so and so.  Knowing admins and having them trust you is always beneficial.  I often wonder how many people have been ban b/c they knew an admin or knew how to get a hold of one quickly and how many people got away with this stuff for the very same reason (only admin on was a friend).

Having said all that I have no reason why no one even issued a warning to some guy that attacked me and the other ATS for over 40 Sec's straight when.  The guy ended up saying in chat after he almost killed me that he was bugged.  Not sure what kind of bug that is I know I have never gotten it.  I do remember  a bug that displayed banners on team enemies but you should be smart enough to realize it when you spawn in the middle of people with no banner.  That means that ones with banners are enemy lol took me like 5 secs to figure that out when I had such a bug occur.  I have no clue why no one didn't issue this guy a warning but w/e it's just a example of how easy it is for people to get away with murder all the time.  Pretty sure we had an admin in vent at the time too.  We both asked for a warning maybe our admin was away at the time, hs was off, or w/e the reason this is just a recent example I instantly thought of.

My point in making this whole post though was not to punish grievers.  That should be an admin job.  I am tired of getting stumbled by a pole user and then open up block oh look I'm dead.  Oh look they don't even say sry they just lead to my death.  Should really be a way to punish by dmg done.  At the same time should earn something for enemy dmg done.

And you know this works both ways.  Right now even though I try not to do it there is no current system that punish Berserkers.  You know the long range melee users that just go nuts.  Or that archer or thrower that is always firing into melee to support you.  I mean I try not to do these things myself but other than people might frown on me there is no reason not to do it.  When I am throwing into a crowd and I hit say Dan like last night 2X I say sry.  I try to say sry for any team dmg especially when it leads directly to a death (stumble or horse bump).  Sometimes though you don't even know the guys name you just hosed.  My point is why not fire/throw into melee, go nuts in melee.  The tk's and FF is still accidental in that case.  I never read it as being against any rule just that it is frowned upon especially when you suck and hit friends alot.