Author Topic: Gold/Experience on Kills  (Read 2942 times)

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Offline Khalim

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Re: Gold/Experience on Kills
« Reply #15 on: March 09, 2011, 06:20:37 pm »
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cRPG is a TEAM BASED game. It is not a stage where you are supposed to show off your 1337 skillz and your duelling power or your superior bow aim which needs literally years of training to learn to lead your target and calculate bullet drop (  :rolleyes: ), it's there to win with your team. The killing is not the goal, it's the way. Players are rewarded for achieving the goal (= winning the fucking round).

You state something that has never been varified. Also I doubt that teambased games are actually more fun. Just because the game lacks different game modes it is not a team based game;) Furthermore the game is not really teambased as the cooperation between players is quite limited, compared to other games.

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What I like about cRPG is, that basically not the team with more/better skilled players wins, but the team with more brainpower and tactics. If you want a game where only your reflexes count, then piss off and play counterstrike, there you are rewarded for kills and can jerk off onto your k/d ratio. In cRPG you need brain, which is much more interesting and challenging than having the better reflexes or whatever. In fact having the better reflexes (e.g. for winning those super hard duels with chamberblocking and shit) is like being a body builder, who tries to raise more weight than others. But sooner or later you will reach the maximum performance your body is capable of, and there will always be someone who has a better body than you, with better reflexes or more strength.

I say you are wrong. The team with better skilled players will win. Also tactics is overestimated or just limited to simple basics. Not attacking one by one can not considered as tactic... As a result it is pure luck to gain xp. Actually you get xp over time, no matter how well you are. You might change your average multplier from 2,21 to 2,37 if you are good, but this is not very motivating.

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You make the fatal mistake of assuming that a player with a good k/d ratio is a good player! That's wrong, he is only a good fighter.

This is right, but beeing a strong fighter CORELATES very strongly with beeing a good player. More then everything else.



For me you are just another forum guy who believes he is absolutly right, not accepting different ideas and oppinions and state things as truth which are actually opened for discussion.

Dont get me wrong. I dont say I want the former system back and I dont say it was better, but the current system is pure shit. That is what I think.
Also I have made several suggestion(in other threads) to improve the situation, so dont call me whiner
« Last Edit: March 09, 2011, 06:23:43 pm by Khalim »
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Offline Joker86

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Re: Gold/Experience on Kills
« Reply #16 on: March 09, 2011, 06:57:31 pm »
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Well, then just tell me two things:

1.: Do you think the teamattacks/teamkills won't increase with the implementation of kill rewards?

2.: Do you think a kill reward system would reward the right people, who deserve it?
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Khalim

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Re: Gold/Experience on Kills
« Reply #17 on: March 09, 2011, 07:12:02 pm »
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1.: Do you think the teamattacks/teamkills won't increase with the implementation of kill rewards?

Of course it will increase because people go mad ;)

But there are other possibilities to implement individual kill reward.

I would like the idea of XP/Kill but 100% for all people who are within a SMALL area. This would also motivate people to stick together. Sure there will be problems which needs to get fixed.

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2.: Do you think a kill reward system would reward the right people, who deserve it?

Dont be so straight minded ;) I accept that you might be right with saying the former system is crap abd should not be changes back 1:1(!) but be open for new ideas.
Also you cannot say that the current system is fairer! Somebody who does kamikaze leeching is rewared MOST! Is this fair?

Instead of argueing against all alternative ideas of Xp system, please think about them. Some are crap but there is much potetial to imrpove the current system which is really not motivating.

People need to have influence on their character. That is what game fun is all about.

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Offline Joker86

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Re: Gold/Experience on Kills
« Reply #18 on: March 09, 2011, 09:54:10 pm »
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My problem is the following thing:

Rewarding kills would focus the players on the wrong aspect of the game. There is a reason that there are two teams, instead of just having everyone vs. everyone. There is a reason chadz first made income only dependant of your distance to a kill, then totally independant of kills. And there is a reason why he added new sound commands.

This all points towards a team based game, and less depending on the skill of particular players. So you shouldn't reward something, which is completely independant of your teamplay.

As I said: cRPG isn't about kills, so kills shouldn't be rewarded. Someone in this topic said to remove the tab screen, but he probably meant this sarcastically. I mean this seriously. Remove it. Come on, you want to be rewarded for kills? How primitive ("Hugh! Me smashed ya skull, me da best!") and immature (= e-peen) is this? You should better want to be rewarded for being the smarter player. Because in the end, everything's about intelligence in life.  :wink:
« Last Edit: March 09, 2011, 09:56:00 pm by Joker86 »
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Kalam

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Re: Gold/Experience on Kills
« Reply #19 on: March 09, 2011, 10:19:56 pm »
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As I said: cRPG isn't about kills, so kills shouldn't be rewarded. Someone in this topic said to remove the tab screen, but he probably meant this sarcastically. I mean this seriously. Remove it. Come on, you want to be rewarded for kills? How primitive ("Hugh! Me smashed ya skull, me da best!") and immature (= e-peen) is this? You should better want to be rewarded for being the smarter player. Because in the end, everything's about intelligence in life.  :wink:

I like this idea, though it would make Strategus a little more interesting when picking mercs.

Offline Khalim

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Re: Gold/Experience on Kills
« Reply #20 on: March 10, 2011, 07:32:25 am »
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Joker, you absolutly have a point.

I am not against teamplay and I think that teamplay should be rewarded, but the problem is, that the current system is too luck based for the individual player, thats all.

Kills really dont need to be rewarded, but skill has to be rewarded and this is absolutly missing.
Actually it is not easy to find a solution for this, but rewarding skill should be the primary target of the motivationystem of a game. Also reward teamplay too.(I never said anything else)

The influence an average player can take is just too small. It is just XP over time, the player or the kamikaze peasent who spends most time will be "PRO". This cannot be the point!
Without any individual reward system grinding from 1 to 30 has totally become useless in all aspects. You are just weaker and have even less influence. Why not start with lv 30 and need 8,7mio xp for 31? Would be better...(not seriously)
« Last Edit: March 10, 2011, 07:38:28 am by Khalim »
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Offline EponiCo

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Re: Gold/Experience on Kills
« Reply #21 on: March 10, 2011, 11:24:59 am »
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Well, the first question is how to actually reward people.
I think the general idea is ofc just give them better stats (on items or chars) but rewarding skilled players that way is kind of circular and pointless imo (We also have to consider that it also makes bad players that already have a hard time struggle more).
For example if we said skill = score (not my opinion but lets use this example), so I get better items for a better score, all that serves is making it easier for me to get an even better score.
Now I can only talk about myself but if my score is over a certain point I don't care. 10 kills or 12 kills whatever. Even if someone does, if he is skilled he can get good scores, so he is already rewarded with what he wants (and if he doesn't get as high as he wants he has to improve his skill...).
Other options are pure show off stuff (achievements) or unlocking new "challenge" classes with very different gameplay. F.e. a good rider could unlock a chariot which is very hard to drive. Or you could unlock "stealth" mode - your flag is shown if you are on the other team as long as you only have a shirt and a sheated dagger - if you managed to get a 3:1 k:d with only short sword and shirt. Only throwing this out because I think it would be awesome.


The other big question is how to measure skill. Heck, we have tons of arguments about which class needs more skill, so how is there ever going to be a skill check that pleases all players?
Apart from that, like Joker says, people will focus on playing in a way that gives good rewards instead of going for other game goals (like winning the battle or siege).
For example, I guess we can all agree that this suggestion would be far more skillbased than just going after kills.
Give xp equal to damage dealt*armor. Also give 500xp for every block 3000 for every chamber and 1000000 for chambering a pikeman with your lance while jumping and killing an archer on the roof with the same attack.
But then people would suddenly start to leave enemies alive just that they can block a bit more often. Clans may even meet somewhere in the desert to set up some special lanes for trick attacks....


So I think the current system is better than what can be realistically implement, because you don't get a skillbased reward without locking down people (unfairly) into one skillset. Kamikaze leechers exist, well whatever, before the patch you had peasants hiding behind 3 shields and being bloody useless until the very moment they could afford the cataphract, while other people that actually fought were still 10k short. You can't have it perfect.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2011, 11:31:15 am by EponiCo »

Offline Felagunda

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Re: Gold/Experience on Kills
« Reply #22 on: March 10, 2011, 12:52:44 pm »
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Yes reintroduce this but what i think would be really bad is for it to be done not by the kills earned but by the damage done.  Also while you're at it bring back some risk versus reward into the game why don't you.....
REINTRODUCE PENALTY FOR TK or better yet for team damage done
http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,2794.0.html
link about people talking about it

Offline Duerkos

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Re: Gold/Experience on Kills
« Reply #23 on: March 10, 2011, 01:16:35 pm »
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I don't think it would be a good idea. Basically everything Joker86 said. You can play a teamplay shielder (a lot of shielders, if theres more people of their team around, try to keep you occupied and leave their teammates to kill you easier) so rewarding based on damage wouldn't work. Besides, even damage is not the only thing you can do. Blocking a tunnel/entrance to the village is "useful" even if you don't get to hit anyone, because you've made sure your team didn't get surrendered/the village wasn't breached (I'm assuming here attackers went elsewhere). And I could go on and on. Besides, it would made more difficult for new people to win against "skilled people" because they would be both skilled and rich (it happens already a bit with heirlooms).

Above all that, pubs would get  the wrong idea and get the most damaging class regardless of survability/balance/etc.

There's people who like frags and looking at the tab you can see who gets most of the kills. I think that's reward enough, I would only accept a cosmetic one on top of that (I think in CRPG your weapon doesn't get bloody right? that would be good and funny).
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Offline EponiCo

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Re: Gold/Experience on Kills
« Reply #24 on: March 10, 2011, 02:16:02 pm »
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I think in CRPG your weapon doesn't get bloody right?

It does.

Offline Joker86

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Re: Gold/Experience on Kills
« Reply #25 on: March 10, 2011, 02:18:14 pm »
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Kills really dont need to be rewarded, but skill has to be rewarded and this is absolutly missing.
Actually it is not easy to find a solution for this, but rewarding skill should be the primary target of the motivationystem of a game. Also reward teamplay too.(I never said anything else)

In my eyes (and I thought quite some time about it) teamplay is the only skill that matters. You are probably talking of actual fighting skills like chamber blocking and shit. Yes, of course, it's good to have these, but they alone don't win rounds.

Still the focus of your perception is too "egoistic", I would say. You only look at your peronal fights, if you win them or not, instead of looking at the entire battle.

In Warband multiplayer, and probably any other multiplayer mod out there, your personal skill is probably the most important thing, and that's the reason why you get rewarded for kills directly. But in cRPG things are different. Battles are bigger, for example. So there is more sense in actually "role playing" the "class" you have chosen, which means that pikemen cover flanks and back, shielders protect the front and so on. In fact some kind of realism came in, as not the team with the better fighters, but the team with the better tactic will win. And because of this fact, the only thing that matters is your capability to play as a real member of a team.

Let's try it this way, by a simple example full of chlichés: Let's assume, skilled players are the big Germanic bonecrushers from the ancient world, while teamplayers are Roman Legionary Recruits, who just finished their training.

All the mods out there with their limited number of players are some kind of "scout skirmish"-games. Small numbers of enemies fighting against each other, and the big mean Teutons chop the poor recruits into half with ease. This is because it's not really a battle, rather a conclusion of a few individual duels.

But if 10.000 Teutons would meet 10.000 Romans on an open field, things would look differently. The Romans would form shield and spear walls, with massive blocks of infantry and some kind of plan how to flank the Teutons or something like that. While the Teutons don't have such sophisticated fighting manners, would more or less charge in a great bunch, relying on their fighting skills and hoping for the best. Most likely the Roman recruits would win here.

So in the first battle, which stands for all the other MP-mods out there, skill mattered, and so it should be rewarded. But in the second battle, which is more cRPG-like, skill didn't matter at all, teamplay did. So this should be rewarded.

(Please don't argue about the historical accuracy of this example, I just needed some kind of "terminator warrior" and some kind of "ant warrior", and those two examples came into my mind  :lol: )
« Last Edit: March 10, 2011, 02:19:33 pm by Joker86 »
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Dexxtaa

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Re: Gold/Experience on Kills
« Reply #26 on: March 10, 2011, 06:21:17 pm »
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There are enough bumbling idiots stumbling over each other to acquire a kill in the game without the prospect of a reward, we don't need to give the dolts another reason to go TK happy.
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Offline Tears of Destiny

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Re: Gold/Experience on Kills
« Reply #27 on: March 10, 2011, 06:26:59 pm »
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That is actually why I prefer playing Seige maps so much, it forces and encourages teamplay in a more obvious fashion. You regularly see defenders not try and kill, but merely delay and distract when the opportunity arises. People quickly wise up that kills do not matter as much as winning or losing the flag, an thus the match. Alternatively you see horsemen not trying to score kills but be a massive tempting distraction for archers to shoot at so the attackers can breach easier, an example of sacrificing personal kill counts in order to let the team get ahead.

I personally am against rewards for kills.

If you are on the winning team, you are a good player, if you are on the losing team, you are not. Over-generalized, but my point should still be there.
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Offline Khalim

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Re: Gold/Experience on Kills
« Reply #28 on: March 10, 2011, 07:00:03 pm »
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Yesterday I retired the first time to Gen 2. I really liked the mod and playing on lv 30, but now the game becames lame..

I started an archer and I am Lv 20 now, but there is not much I can do to support my team with low attributes. Sometimes I have much success, but grinding to even Lv 30 is boring(and there is nothing I can do to accellerate this)

I have put much hope into a RPG Warband mod, but this one is starting to turn me off. Usually I do not quit games fast, but now I start to think about it.

There is just no mechanism which improves my motivation. Also I have minor influence with a low level. Furthermore there are a bunch of really stupid nerved gamemechanics in here.

Since some months I played native MP again and I have to say that native has SEVERAL advantages over CRPG. Things which are not nessessery to be worse then native...

Call me a whiner if you want. I dont care about childtalk ;)

Conclusion: My whining results from the xp system.
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Offline Blondin

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Re: Gold/Experience on Kills
« Reply #29 on: March 10, 2011, 07:34:25 pm »
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Since some months I played native MP again and I have to say that native has SEVERAL advantages over CRPG.

like leveling your char? or choose freely your equipment?