Axes: Polearm vs 2-Handed

[Slamz]

Great Long Axe (polearm)
125 length
16 difficulty
91 speed
45 cut (16 blunt)
Shield Bonus

Long War Axe (polearm)
123 length
15 difficulty
92 speed
44 cut (16 blunt)
Shield Bonus

Great Axe (2-handed)
96 length
15 difficulty
94 speed
43 cut
Shield Bonus
Unbalanced


Why are the 2-handed axes Unbalanced?  They're pretty crappy to begin with, being much shorter, doing less damage and being less versatile (no poke), but being unbalanced really kills their usefulness relative to the polearms.

Basically the game is not well balanced in terms of 2-handed axes vs polearm axes, and within 2-handers there's no balance between 2-handed axes and swords.

If you use a 2-handed axe, you are picking aesthetics over usefulness.


Suggestion:
Remove "unbalanced" from the 2-handed axes.  That would at least be a help.  I don't see what's in their stats to justify being unbalanced.

[Leshma]

2H axes are unbalanced because of realism. And also because polearms don't have cool weapons like swords. Actually it's all about Fasader and Paul being both delusional, as usual.

[Gurnisson]

Because 2h axes are epic one-hit weapons from horseback. Also, the animations are a lot better

[IG_Saint]

So 2h get better animations and supposedly epic horseback weapons (which are far inferior to lances), while polearms gets versatility (lots of weapon type choices), balanced shield breakers, generally heavier weapons (stun ftw), pole stagger (free hits ftw) and a good selection of long spammy weapons (vs the 2h's 1 truly long weapon, the slow ass flamberge).

Well that seems fair.

Also the better animation argument is getting old. That may have been true once, but these days there really isn't any difference. If you can block decently, it doesn't matter if you're facing a polearm of 2h (except for stun, pole stagger and constantly being outreached if you don't use a greatsword as a 2h).

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Not that I actually want a buff for 2hs, I'm fine with the melee balance as it is (flawed though it may be). I just completely disagree with the idea that polearms and 2hs are "balanced"

[Gurnisson]

So 2h get better animations

I've used great axe on 2-hander and poleaxes on my polearm main. Two-handed axes are much better to aim with, its overhead is without a shadow of doubt a million times better than the polearm ones. Poleaxes have stagger (which they shouldn't have, but that's another discussion). Poleaxes are overall quite a lot better than the two-handed ones because of they're not unbalanced too. However even if the polearms are statistically better I feel the 2H ones are better and easier to use myself (my opinion!)

and supposedly epic horseback weapons (which are far inferior to lances)

We're comparing axes of the different classes here. A lance ain't an axe.

(click to show/hide)

while polearms gets versatility (lots of weapon type choices), balanced shield breakers, generally heavier weapons (stun ftw), pole stagger (free hits ftw) and a good selection of long spammy weapons (vs the 2h's 1 truly long weapon, the slow ass flamberge).

Well that seems fair.

Also the better animation argument is getting old. That may have been true once, but these days there really isn't any difference. If you can block decently, it doesn't matter if you're facing a polearm of 2h (except for stun, pole stagger and constantly being outreached if you don't use a greatsword as a 2h).

Not that I actually want a buff for 2hs, I'm fine with the melee balance as it is (flawed though it may be). I just completely disagree with the idea that polearms and 2hs are "balanced"

And, yes, the post was what I thought. Polearm vs. two-handed even if the thread specifies it's about axes. Let's just take that discussion somewhere else.
However I would like to see a top-tier axe at around 10 k that's balanced and packs a good punch. I love 2H axes to bits and I don't think a top-tier 2H axe would be out of place.

[Slamz]

A better 2H axe would be a reasonable compromise.  Mark it as unusable from horseback if you want.


Incidentally, if 2H axes are so epic from horseback, who uses them?

I'll start looking for them so I can see them in action.  I'm sure they are very famous, what with all the kills they must get with such an overpowered weapon.  I don't know how I've been overlooking them all this time.  I'm sure if you list their names for me, it will dawn on me.  I have a lot more respect for people like Huey now that I know he's been handicapping himself with a lance instead of using the overpowered 2H axes.

[Jarlek]

If you can spot the pattern in the spoiler you can see why 2h axes are worse than polearm axes.

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Axe                           2h      398
Two Handed Axe         2h      754
Battle Axe                  2h      894
Two Handed War Axe   2h     2,098
War Axe                     2h     2,522
Persian War Axe          2h     4,035
Persian Battle Axe       2h     5,612
Great Axe                   2h     6,612
Long Axe                   Pole    6,934
Long War Axe            Pole    9,909
Great Long Axe          Pole    12,649
Poleaxe                     Pole   14,470
German Poleaxe         Pole    15,061
Elegant Poleaxe         Pole    15,634

As is pretty obvious now, polearm axes are better because of the simple fact that they are more expensive. The 2h axes are basically the cheap 2handers, while the polearm axes (and poleaxes which I included) are the top end polearms.

You have to compare the polearm axes with the Two Handed Sword and above and the 2h axes with the spears and staffs. You just simply can't compare the 2h axes with the polearm axes. It would be like comparing the greatswords with the quarterstaff. They're just out of their league. I almost were gonna say here that you have to be a polearmer if you want to be an axeman, but when I think about it, you can actually do very well and be totally viable with the 2h axes too. They just have their own unique niche, just like the staffs and spears.

And if you REALLY want a good shield braking weapon, you ought to just take the Morningstar. It's the second highest damaging weapon in the game.

Whether this came through developers making the axes bad and then reducing price, or if they reduced the price and then had to nerf the weapon is something I can't answer.

I'll start looking for them so I can see them in action.  I'm sure they are very famous, what with all the kills they must get with such an overpowered weapon.  I don't know how I've been overlooking them all this time.  I'm sure if you list their names for me, it will dawn on me.  I have a lot more respect for people like Huey now that I know he's been handicapping himself with a lance instead of using the overpowered 2H axes.

I'm playing partly as a 2h cav now, and I'll tell you why people aren't using the 2h axes on horseback. Because it is a slightly better, although more expensive, option. Namely the morningstar and longsword. You don't see people with the 2h axes on horseback for the same reason you don't see many lancers with the normal or light lance. People prioritize their money spending on weapons. It's also why people choose the Knightly Arming Sword over the Long Arming Sword. Personally I don't get it, but that's just me.

PS: Using the axes is actually pretty fun on horseback. You get the same problem as with ANY 1h/2h/Hafted Blade, in that ANYONE (and I mean ANYONE) can easily attack you before you can attack them. Swing weapons from horse is super-nerfed by the fact that we are fighting thinking humans with no fear for their own lives.

EDIT: Also forgot. Another thing you can notice with the axes is that all the polearm axes are unusable on horse while the 2h axes are usable. I'm thinking this has something to do with the fact that polearms are mainly stab only on horseback and that a swinging poleaxe on horse would be unbalanced.

[Teeth]

The Great Axe is a really good weapon, its fast and deadly. Awesome for siege especially. It kinda makes sense that 2h axes are worse cause a heavy headed weapon like an axe just handles much better with a wide grip. Try swinging a woodcutting axe with your hands next together. It is much harder to recover from a missed swing. Then again, balance > realism.

(click to show/hide)

So 2h get better animations and supposedly epic horseback weapons (which are far inferior to lances), while polearms gets versatility (lots of weapon type choices), balanced shield breakers, generally heavier weapons (stun ftw), pole stagger (free hits ftw) and a good selection of long spammy weapons (vs the 2h's 1 truly long weapon, the slow ass flamberge).

Well that seems fair.

Also the better animation argument is getting old. That may have been true once, but these days there really isn't any difference. If you can block decently, it doesn't matter if you're facing a polearm of 2h (except for stun, pole stagger and constantly being outreached if you don't use a greatsword as a 2h).

(click to show/hide)

Not that I actually want a buff for 2hs, I'm fine with the melee balance as it is (flawed though it may be). I just completely disagree with the idea that polearms and 2hs are "balanced"

QFT, 2H are way inferior now. I am personally one of the rare cases who actually finds the 2H animations much easier to read than the polearm ones. The better animation thing is indeed getting old. You even forgot to mention the insane damage polearms have, the main thing that makes them better than 2h.

German poleaxe has 29p and 42 cut whereas the Danish has 24p and 40c. Weapons are pretty much equal in speed and the right swing of the german is as long as all the swings of the 2H. It has a shorter stab, but gets the ridiculously fast insta polearm stab, polestun, weapon stun due to being heavier and deceptive range in return.

This is coming from someone who was a 2h for ages and is now a proud German Poleaxe user.

Two-handed axes are much better to aim with, its overhead is without a shadow of doubt a million times better than the polearm ones.

First thing I noticed when I switched from 2h to polearm is how ridiculously easy to aim to polearm overhead is. It is so predictable, its exactly in the center of your screen and has a constant speed. Great for finishing ganks. 45c to the head = death. The 2H one is way harder to aim. Another big advantage for polearm

[Leshma]

I am personally one of the rare cases who actually finds the 2H animations much easier to read than the polearm ones.

You're not the only one. Twohanded animations last so long unless we are talking about second swing in a row (changing from left to right swing which is basically hiltslash). Everyone can block greatswords because of that.

Polearm animations last shorter, it's hard to tell when the animation is starting so you often start attacking not realizing that polearm animation is almost finished...

And of course there is polearm thrust which is so fast on some faster spears/pikes and such, that you can't even see the animation (awlpike).

Blame cmpx and his hatred towards 2H swords.

[Christo]

Because 2h axes are epic one-hit weapons from horseback. Also, the animations are a lot better

Sure, gameplay wise.

But the 2h grip on an axe is just ridiculous.

Have you ever tried to hold an axe like that? Geez.

Let alone swinging it, or blocking with it.

[Gurnisson]

(click to show/hide)

Sure, gameplay wise.

But the 2h grip on an axe is just ridiculous.

Have you ever tried to hold an axe like that? Geez.

Let alone swinging it, or blocking with it.

'Game Balance Discussion' board. Not Realism board now:)

A better 2H axe would be a reasonable compromise.  Mark it as unusable from horseback if you want.

Yes, I just suggested a top-tier axe. The axes that are here already are very good for their price, but we lack that top-tier one.

Incidentally, if 2H axes are so epic from horseback, who uses them?

I'll start looking for them so I can see them in action.  I'm sure they are very famous, what with all the kills they must get with such an overpowered weapon.  I don't know how I've been overlooking them all this time.  I'm sure if you list their names for me, it will dawn on me.  I have a lot more respect for people like Huey now that I know he's been handicapping himself with a lance instead of using the overpowered 2H axes.

Thanks for being a massive twat. You bring in lances again. WHY? It's poleaxes vs. 2h axes discussion according to your opening post. Stop talking about lances already. 2h axes are cheaper, better animation, still great damage and are usable from horseback and deadly at it judging from own experience. That's their pros. Their con is being unbalanced. Make a top-tier axe, don't buff the axes that's already here, they're great for their price.

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QFT, 2H are way inferior now. I am personally one of the rare cases who actually finds the 2H animations much easier to read than the polearm ones. The better animation thing is indeed getting old. You even forgot to mention the insane damage polearms have, the main thing that makes them better than 2h.

German poleaxe has 29p and 42 cut whereas the Danish has 24p and 40c. Weapons are pretty much equal in speed and the right swing of the german is as long as all the swings of the 2H. It has a shorter stab, but gets the ridiculously fast insta polearm stab, polestagger, weapon stun due to being heavier and deceptive range in return.

This is coming from someone who was a 2h for ages and is now a proud German Poleaxe user.
First thing I noticed when I switched from 2h to polearm is how ridiculously easy to aim to polearm overhead is. It is so predictable, its exactly in the center of your screen and has a constant speed. Great for finishing ganks. 45c to the head = death. The 2H one is way harder to aim. Another big advantage for polearm

Good for you, stay with polearm then. I find 2H a lot better and easier to use myself but it's a lot more boring. Versatility and fun > min-maxing. I started with polearms in the autumn or something, but I started out in crpg as a two-hander. From the start I've always meant that 2H is superior to polearms but for the versatility,  and that's why I started as a 2H at first I'll admit, but I haven't changed my look at it at all. With 2Hs I can make feinting, outcircling, holds etc. look more like real attacks which makes the enemies drop their block. With polearms it's a lot harder to trick your opponent to believing that you already released your attack. Left swing + hold + wiggle = free hit on 90 % of the playerbase with 2Hs because it really looks like a hit, which is hard to do with a polearm. Polearms have a stuttering animation which is hard to imitate. That's why I believe the smooth animations are superior.

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You're not the only one. Twohanded animations last so long unless we are talking about second swing in a row (changing from left to right swing which is basically hiltslash). Everyone can block greatswords because of that.

Polearm animations last shorter, it's hard to tell when the animation is starting so you often start attacking not realizing that polearm animation is almost finished...

And of course there is polearm thrust which is so fast on some faster spears/pikes and such, that you can't even see the animation (awlpike).

Blame cmpx and his hatred towards 2H swords.

 

2H stab has length, polearms stab have speed. Greatswords outreach long awlpike, ashwood, awlpike etc.? Well, yes, and it's dumb realism-wise but balancing-wise it's fine since the polestab is faster than the 2H stab.

[Christo]

'Game Balance Discussion' board. Not Realism board now:)

Still.

That grip cries for an unbalanced tag.

[Jarlek]

Still.

That grip cries for an unbalanced tag.

Definitly. No 2h axe, mace or maul (ok, maybe the 2h mace) should EVER be balanced because it just doesn't make sense. Buff them instead in damage, reach or speed, but never make them balanced.

[B3RS3RK]

The 2h axes aren´t balanced.

The grip is all down the shaft and the axehead on the end of the shaft is really heavy.

It fucking isnt balanced.

[Leshma]

Laugh all you want. Your only 2H alt is now 2H cav, maybe because you can't kill as many people as you do on your gaystabber main

So much for 2H supremacy. Cmpx beat the shit out of it and left it in laying in the dust.