Author Topic: The State of Archery in cRPG - all fear the machine gun bows  (Read 14562 times)

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Offline Joker86

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Re: The State of Archery in cRPG - all fear the machine gun bows
« Reply #135 on: February 02, 2012, 12:17:44 am »
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I have to admit I have mixed feelings about a lot of things concerning balancing.

On one hand I can understand how archers feel useless with dealing much less damage. But on the other hand me and many others were sick of rounds being decided by who has the most archers in his team.

Same thing about cavalry. They weren't buffed directly by the last patch, but because their counters are made so bad cav became the new, battle-deciding force. Which can't be, either. No class should be useless (except of a few special support classes like pikemen, throwers or horsearchers not having big impact on the entire team), and no class should be dominating.

I already wrote somewhere else, that you have to take two "balancing levels" into account: the best possible performance with a class, AND the actual average performance on the servers.

There is no use in a class that once mastered is as effective as the others, but is much more difficult to master than the others, because this would lead to an underrepresentation on the servers.

On the other hand it doesn't make much sense to make a class difficult to master, but then, as kind of "reward", making the best possible performance better than with other classes. This is fair for the particular player who chose this class, but it is not for everyone else. Otherwise every player who wants to max out his performance would sooner or later have to change to this class, which would lead to a heavy overrepresentation on the servers. (The other way round, with an easy class that reaches top performance rather soon, you would only have a "noob" class, which can't be good either)

Both archery and cavalry (and a few classes more) have these problems. It is easier to balance the best possible performance (BPP), and much more difficult to balance the average player performance (APP).

If you touch one of the two, you also change the other, almost inevitably.


The only solution I see would be to balance the classes on the BPP-level, and influence the APP level not by stats of items but by player knowledge, or better: education.

cRPG and strategus are great inventions, making individual players create an alter ego in a persistent world which is highly dependant on the player's very own performance, that is his skills. The balancing team and the rest of the developers is constantly working on improving hostile interaction with other players, in other words: fighting!

But what they totally neglected is to support players in their FRIENDLY interaction with others!

Players are expected to actively join clans to play "together" with others, unlike casual, who usually only play "along" others. Yes, there was this voice system enabled, but its only use is to give trolls a tool to spam annoying sound messages all over the server, the actual use is close to zero. And the marketplace is more of an interaction between the players themselves, instead of their toons. Making loom points redistributable would have almost the same effect, without the gold sink, which apparently doesn't change much anyway.

What this game needs desperately are two things, in my eyes:

- a working command system with REWARDS for carrying out orders

- a system to "educate" players to play their role and the entire game properly, when they START to play and haven't created bad/wrong habits yet.

What we have to state first is one simple but sad fact: the average cRPG player is stupid. Dezilagel will probably go nuts when he reads this (  :P ), that's why I want to relativize: I don't say they are stupid in general, but they behave stupidly in cRPG, concerning of maximizing their performance. This can have various reasons:

- not being interested enough to feel the urge to improve one's theoretical knowledge about the game
- reducing the game to a simple game of skill, where only reflexes count
- never having thought about it properly, in the end it's only a game!
- lacking trust into their teammates
- and many more....

If you want to make the best out of your toon and his performance, I would say things like above are stupid. The thing is, that not everyone wants to be most successful in this game, and we should respect this. That's why we have to keep as many of my suggestions more or less "voluntary" as possible. But for dealing with the problems cRPG has, we have to act like we were dealing with a bunch of unwilling, desinterested and immature children, who sometimes even need to be forced to their own luck. Yes, it is some kind of patronizing, but if someone is too mature to need patronization, he will be able to resist it, anyway. Remember, we keep it voluntary.  :wink:

But a lot of the basic knowledge the community is lacking on the servers doesn't go against their idea of playing the game at all! I can't believe that if you want to play the game "just for fun" you don't mind if you get lanced away right after spawning several times, just because you are an "autowalker". Spending time in spectator screen can't be fun, so there is noone who can't use the advice of "after spawning watch out for cavalry attacking from behind", and god know a lot of player DO NEED this advice  :rolleyes:

Now I am approaching to what I am aiming at:

If we had a command system, in which players would be involved by default, which means that you need to leave it actively, so that we can get those "indifferent" players, too, not only the interested who would join actively, we would have a good base to educate and "train" the community.

By granting (small) rewards for following orders I think many, if not most players would follow those, be it only because of greed. My hope is, that after some time, especially when there is no commander, they realize how important tactics are to win a map, and also how plain and one dimensional the game becomes if it's being reduced to "rush and spam".

Giving the commander the tools not only to place certain flags ("Defend here!" "Stay way from here!"), but also to release big screen messages ("Attack!" "Watch out for cav in our back!"), people would learn the right behaviour on the battle field by and by.

And now we finally reached the core of my post: if more infantry would learn how to be aware of cav, or how to deal with distant groups of archers, there would be less whine about those classes, as they are not OP by themselves, the average cRPG-lemming makes them OP. By improving the general knowledge of the cRPG players the developers could stop nerfing the APP of certain classes who are good against lemmings, and thus stop nerfing the BPP.

I would suggest implementing a good, sophisticated but easy to understand command system with rewards that reaches all players, together with FORCING new players to watch certain tutorial videos about how the game is played. If you download the mod for the first time, and you watch the video which is required to unlock the cRPG character page, and the video is telling you "cRPG is a team based game, and only if you support your teammates the best you can in the right way for your class, you will be a successful and good player. Skills are important, but not the core of the mod.", you would approach the mod on a totally different way, and your behaviour on the servers would change accordingly. Which is a good thing, IMHO.

The tl;dr version:

Fuck you, you lazy bastard! Read it or piss off, if you are too stupid or your attention span is too limited to read a text longer than an SMS, you shouldn't visit forums, anyway.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2012, 12:31:35 am by Joker86 »
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Kharn

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Re: The State of Archery in cRPG - all fear the machine gun bows
« Reply #136 on: February 02, 2012, 12:24:48 am »
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Archers are not supposed to get kills they get staggers.

They are nothing more than Bards playing a one string harp.

While they are on the battlefield, your teammates have a +5 to hit.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2012, 12:27:22 am by Kharn »
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Offline Adamar

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Re: The State of Archery in cRPG - all fear the machine gun bows
« Reply #137 on: February 02, 2012, 12:36:51 am »
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Archers are not supposed to get kills they get staggers.

They are nothing more than Bards playing a one string harp.

While they are on the battlefield, your teammates have a +5 to hit.

It wouldn't make sence to play a certain class if you're not supposed to get kills. Archers aren't there to help noobs score! We play what class we fancy the most and the kill ratio should remain balanced.
The op's suggestion makes sence. Teach noobs tactics rather than nerf classes.

Offline Penitent

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Re: The State of Archery in cRPG - all fear the machine gun bows
« Reply #138 on: February 02, 2012, 12:38:09 am »
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Joker, that was actually a good post.  It would be tough to implement a reward system for obeying commands, but it would be super cool!  Other than than, your thought process behind your post is good.

It's the "lemming behavior" or lack of tactics, or lack of smart playstyle that makes cav or archers OP....not their actual stats or damage.  All the classes in this game can easily be counteracted with equipment and playstyle. 

It's as if people WANT this to be a infantry-only battle game SO BADLY that they will stubbornly play as if it is one no matter how many archers are shooting at them, or how many cav are at their back.  They will not take shields, pikes, or use formations and cover no matter what...then complain when something goes wrong over and over until this game takes one more step in the direction of becoming an infantry battle simulator instead of a medieval battle simulator.

All they really have to do is play smarter given the rules of the game...not try to change the rules to make it easier to play.

Before the latest patch, it was all pretty balanced.  Each "class" was able to succeed and play a major role in a battle if they were able to adapt and play smart.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2012, 12:48:01 am by Garison »

Offline Joker86

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Re: The State of Archery in cRPG - all fear the machine gun bows
« Reply #139 on: February 02, 2012, 01:27:51 am »
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Joker, that was actually a good post.  It would be tough to implement a reward system for obeying commands, but it would be super cool!  Other than than, your thought process behind your post is good.

It's the "lemming behavior" or lack of tactics, or lack of smart playstyle that makes cav or archers OP....not their actual stats or damage.  All the classes in this game can easily be counteracted with equipment and playstyle. 

It's as if people WANT this to be a infantry-only battle game SO BADLY that they will stubbornly play as if it is one no matter how many archers are shooting at them, or how many cav are at their back.  They will not take shields, pikes, or use formations and cover no matter what...then complain when something goes wrong over and over until this game takes one more step in the direction of becoming an infantry battle simulator instead of a medieval battle simulator.

All they really have to do is play smarter given the rules of the game...not try to change the rules to make it easier to play.

Before the latest patch, it was all pretty balanced.  Each "class" was able to succeed and play a major role in a battle if they were able to adapt and play smart.

Thanks!

I just want to add that I don't think that suggesting to equip certain items (e.g. pikes or shields) can be used as a balancing argument, because this effectively changes your class, and be it only to hybrid.

I just hope the developers take up the idea of improving teamplay on the servers, to turn the game in the right direction. It would make things even easier for them, or the balancing team. Because with a good education of players the APP would be much closer to the BPP, so that you don't have these problems like "this class is difficult to play, but it needs to be nerfed further because some players reach incredibly good stats with them", effectively breaking the class.

In short: moving the APP closer to the BPP makes things both a lot easier and better.
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Mtemtko

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Re: The State of Archery in cRPG - all fear the machine gun bows
« Reply #140 on: February 02, 2012, 03:23:05 pm »
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Fuck this shit, in my one year and a half of crpg the class ive been playing as a HA or archer ive been nerfed TENS of times, but slightly buffed once, maybe twice slightly... Now I started questioning if these threads any impact at all.


When people complain about 2h spam: learn to block
When people complain about cav: bring a pike or longspear
when people complain about archers: Use cover, bring a shield, or stay behind someone that has. Nerf them!


This above all.
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Offline Penitent

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Re: The State of Archery in cRPG - all fear the machine gun bows
« Reply #141 on: February 02, 2012, 03:45:33 pm »
+3
Thanks!

I just want to add that I don't think that suggesting to equip certain items (e.g. pikes or shields) can be used as a balancing argument, because this effectively changes your class, and be it only to hybrid.

Hmm, I disagree with this statement.  You have to take in to account what the battlefield holds before you decide your class.  For example, if I want to make a 33/3 archery build and complain that melee are walking all over me.. I would have to change my build to compensate.  Not all builds are equal in viability.  If I'm a melee and complain that archers are kill me before I can engage the enemy, I would likewise be expected to bring a practice shield or follow someone that has.  If I'm a cav with 3 riding skill and complain that I can't kill other cav...well you get the picture.  We absolutely must adapt our builds, play-styles, and equipment to conditions on the ground--at least in part.  Otherwise we fall back in to the stubborn and selfish "I'll play how I want to play and complain when it doesn't work out the way I want."  We gotta adapt, man.

On the other hand, if someone absolutely wants to make a build that uses a spear and a longsword (and has no slots for shields) then they should do so knowing full well that risks that entails.  They'd have to adapt their playstyle to stick with teamies that have shields or run from cover to cover (the the best of his ability) before engaging the enemy to avoid arrow fire.  Getting riddled with arrows would not be grounds for complaint in this case, because it was a choice the player made.  They wouldn't be forced to change their build, but they'd have to deal with the consquences (however light or heavy) based on the build they chose.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2012, 03:55:32 pm by Garison »

Offline polkafranzi

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Re: The State of Archery in cRPG - all fear the machine gun bows
« Reply #142 on: February 03, 2012, 03:35:18 am »
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current state of cRPG when the map/amount of my old friends permits.

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Offline Oggrinsky

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Re: The State of Archery in cRPG - all fear the machine gun bows
« Reply #143 on: February 03, 2012, 04:59:27 am »
+1
current state of cRPG when the map/amount of my old friends permits.

Thanks, you've provided us with a great example of bad argument. Also, you've provided the perfect example of the kind of rhetorical bullshit that passes itself off as legitimate discussion around here.

Bravo.

Offline Gristle

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Re: The State of Archery in cRPG - all fear the machine gun bows
« Reply #144 on: February 03, 2012, 08:21:02 am »
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current state of cRPG when the map/amount of my old friends permits.


You don't have to walk into that obvious death trap. You can wait for flags. Do you also stand in the middle of an open field and bitch when you get swarmed by cavalry (I sure as hell do)?

Ladders were removed for a reason. In this case, blame the map and its built in ladders. Downvote it if it makes you feel better (but I know that won't work because Random Plains is still in rotation, but that's for a different thread).

Offline Dezilagel

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Re: The State of Archery in cRPG - all fear the machine gun bows
« Reply #145 on: February 03, 2012, 09:51:15 am »
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I think you're misunderstanding him.

It's not "omg, this is so unfair and op I can't beat it Q_Q" he's saying, he's saying "wtf guys, look at yourselves; is this really how you want to play the game?"

And I agree with him on one point - it's fucking lame. But then nothing can really be done about it, so I guess we'll just have to wait for flags... FUN!

No but really, I personally don't get the camper mentality, but each to their own I guess.

This is also not to say that the current horse situation isn't lame. But that can be fixed.

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Offline Gristle

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Re: The State of Archery in cRPG - all fear the machine gun bows
« Reply #146 on: February 03, 2012, 11:57:35 am »
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Well, as I said, blame the map in that situation. I downvote that map as often as I remember to (I forget the feature exists sometimes), and I'm usually one of the people telling the team to wait for flags when the enemy decides to camp. Maps with areas like that encourage camping, and I hate it as much as anyone else. I don't like camping. I tend to be very mobile when I'm not reloading my crossbow.

Offline polkafranzi

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Re: The State of Archery in cRPG - all fear the machine gun bows
« Reply #147 on: February 03, 2012, 01:39:48 pm »
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I think you're misunderstanding him.

It's not "omg, this is so unfair and op I can't beat it Q_Q" he's saying, he's saying "wtf guys, look at yourselves; is this really how you want to play the game?"

And I agree with him on one point - it's fucking lame. But then nothing can really be done about it, so I guess we'll just have to wait for flags... FUN!

No but really, I personally don't get the camper mentality, but each to their own I guess.

This is also not to say that the current horse situation isn't lame. But that can be fixed.

Exactly, and what did we write in teamchat? "Lets just wait for flags"...

Oberyn, Reyiz, myself, we are all cav but dismounted for that map, just to be faced with good ol' campin  :lol:

And...lol'd at how easy it is to bring out some small rage from the ranged community just by posting a fun screenie ^^

Thing is, I personally like these little town maps and well, of course they are gonna camp, but I know that if the next map is random plains and they have no pike support they are fucked.  That's life.  I've read but not posted on any of these recent "archery nerf" threads and a common line that keeps cropping up seems to be "we don't top the scores as much" or "it's hard to get a good K:D now"...Well, Radh and Lopez and some others certainly didn't find it hard on that map  :D 
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Offline MrShine

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Re: The State of Archery in cRPG - all fear the machine gun bows
« Reply #148 on: February 03, 2012, 03:46:47 pm »
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Hmm, I disagree with this statement.  You have to take in to account what the battlefield holds before you decide your class.  For example, if I want to make a 33/3 archery build and complain that melee are walking all over me.. I would have to change my build to compensate.  Not all builds are equal in viability.  If I'm a melee and complain that archers are kill me before I can engage the enemy, I would likewise be expected to bring a practice shield or follow someone that has.  If I'm a cav with 3 riding skill and complain that I can't kill other cav...well you get the picture.  We absolutely must adapt our builds, play-styles, and equipment to conditions on the ground--at least in part.  Otherwise we fall back in to the stubborn and selfish "I'll play how I want to play and complain when it doesn't work out the way I want."  We gotta adapt, man.

On the other hand, if someone absolutely wants to make a build that uses a spear and a longsword (and has no slots for shields) then they should do so knowing full well that risks that entails.  They'd have to adapt their playstyle to stick with teamies that have shields or run from cover to cover (the the best of his ability) before engaging the enemy to avoid arrow fire.  Getting riddled with arrows would not be grounds for complaint in this case, because it was a choice the player made.  They wouldn't be forced to change their build, but they'd have to deal with the consquences (however light or heavy) based on the build they chose.

+1 to this.

Putting a point into shield skill or buying and equipping a 2 slot spear to help combat ranged/cavalry are very easy things that can be done that don't drastically affect your build.  A 2h that uses a heater shield occasionally is still a completely effective 2H build, they just also added a bit of additional flexibility to prevent ranged damage.

I agree that a build shouldn't be completely demolished by any one "counter" (provided it's a viable build to begin with) but forcing the game to make your playstyle effective against other classes isn't the way to balance.  The counters are already available and are easy to add to any load-out.




E: Regarding that map with the camping ranged (looks like 3 archers 3 xbowmen) that is an awful map and I agree it's lame when an army of archers are on the roof... even worse if a few shielders are blocking the stairway up. 

But you can't really blame ranged for using an advantageous position, there is no real good reason NOT to be up there as ranged.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2012, 04:07:15 pm by MrShine »
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Offline polkafranzi

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Re: The State of Archery in cRPG - all fear the machine gun bows
« Reply #149 on: February 03, 2012, 04:19:41 pm »
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E: Regarding that map with the camping ranged (looks like 3 archers 3 xbowmen) that is an awful map and I agree it's lame when an army of archers are on the roof... even worse if a few shielders are blocking the stairway up. 

But you can't really blame ranged for using an advantageous position, there is no real good reason NOT to be up there as ranged.

Exactly, I would do the same myself if i was ranged probably  8-)

BUT, it's fucking lame nonetheless ^^

What's annoying is ranged crying on open plains whre cav obviously excel...I think a proper map rotation balance will make most parties happy.
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