polestagger

[Snoozer]

if they remove it do you think they should make certain pole arms faster?

and what made you pick that?

me personally i would like there to be a slight increase in the spead of polearms.

 like 5 speed maybe?(i meant to say 2 speed I HIT WRONG NUMPAD BUTTON... jan 28 2120)

personally i think pole stagger is overrated,it does help a little but not like people say it does i just would like a little bit more speed to compensate

[Smoothrich]

Polearm thrust is already instant and extremely OP, tighten up the left swing and you're good to go

[Snoozer]

i was referring to swing attack speed actually.i think the speed of polearm stab is superb though strangely short...but maybe thats because im comparing it to 2h stab lol

[BlackMilk]

Even without the stagger polearms are as good as 2hs

[Snoozer]

Even without the stagger polearms are as good as 2hs

how so?

polearms are shorter then 2h weapons due to the fact that the animmation of poles is held in the center while 2h at the handle...


even the stab is longer then poles if not the same length as them

[BlackMilk]

Even if this was right, they'd still have more damage, a higher weight and shielbreaker function (atleast most of them) at a pretty much same speed

[WaltF4]

Polearm thrust is already instant and extremely OP, tighten up the left swing and you're good to go

I do not know of any interpretation of "instant" that can be applied to polearm thrusts that can not also be applied to every attack animation using the M&B engine. All attack animations use colliders that are active as soon as the weapon begins to move. This is not an issue confined to polearms or to thrusts. I have also shown previously that thrusts with polearms do not deal full damage upon releasing the attack and require the weapon to extend approximately half of the total distance the weapon will travel before they do deal full damage.

how so?

It is a non-demonstrable claim that has been made many times. It remains as non-demonstrable as any claims that two-handed weapons are better or equal or worst than polearms with or without stagger.

[Vibe]

You can't just say poles are better than 2h. I'd say poles are better for battle due to being able to kill faster and providing some utility with the stun and 2h are better for dueling due to faster animations.

[Snoozer]

I do not know of any interpretation of "instant" that can be applied to polearm thrusts that can not also be applied to every attack animation using the M&B engine. All attack animations use colliders that are active as soon as the weapon begins to move. This is not an issue confined to polearms or to thrusts. I have also shown previously that thrusts with polearms do not deal full damage upon releasing the attack and require the weapon to extend approximately half of the total distance the weapon will travel before they do deal full damage.


It is a non-demonstrable claim that has been made many times. It remains as non-demonstrable as any claims that two-handed weapons are better or equal or worst than polearms with or without stagger.

ty for the link

do you think polearms are op?

[Dezilagel]

5 speed sounds a bit much, maybe like 2-3...

Anyways, me and Blackmilk had an intresting discussion on this topic a few days ago. TL:DR-WARNING! (Oh, and put on your fireproof Hazmat suits, there is a lot of flaming, some very acidic responses and some bullshit here)

(click to show/hide)

Nerf polearms and everything is fine.

Ranged is fine (dunno about throwing), 2h infantry is, 1h infantry definetly is, 1h cav is, polearm cav is, 2h cav is. Polearm infantry remains as the only op class. There's not a single good reason why you should not choose a polearm over any other melee class. It can stop horses, it can stagger the opponent and stun his weapon (high weight), it has  incredible reach, the by far highest damage overall (31 pierce stab on poleaxe eg) and same/higher speed as 2h (glaive for instance is as fast as danish gs allthough it has 2 less speedpoints according to the site).

Also the shield of 1h is still very usefull, BUT it slows you down alot and ranged is not that much of a threat anymore ('cause most archers are too bad to aim properly)

And this is a load of bull.

A greatsword outreaches my poleaxe on 3/4 swings, and has overall higher reach.

The shitty bonus length on the animations in compensated by longer weapon length... Which is a disadvantage since high length + high weight on your weapon makes you run much slower.

And last time I checked, poles and 2h have roughtly equal damage apart from the stab. But then the polestab is outclassed by far by the 2h. And having a high-damage 2h stab would make playing pikeman as a 2h even more profitable.

And you constantly proclaim that poles have higher speed than 2h... Which from my POV is also total bull. Sure the Glavie has fucked up animations due to it's extreme length, but it is definitively slower than the GS's. Unless you got statistics to back that (imo) bullshit statement, then why should anyone believe you?

One thing I can agree about is the weight, where poles tend to beat 2h just, making for a pole advantage there. But I'd gladly have the weight "nerfed" to 2h levels since that would make me run faster.

Oh, and polestagger is bs yes.

...the whole discussion started with these forum posts, the rest was done via PM:

Judging from your post you're completly New to crpg/warband in general. You are the one who just posted a huge Wall of BIASED as fuck bullcrap.

Tell me what in my post is incorrect then?

poleaxe being outranged by a gs

high weight is a minus

2h Stab is better than polearm Stab allthough its slower, less damaging and glances more often

and some other Things i cba to recall

cheers

Poleaxe IS outranged by the greatswords, look here:

Amount of reach added to weapon length due to animation.

1h
Overhead = +0
Left-to-right = +0
Right-to-left = +19
Thrust = +61

2h
Overhead = +15
Left-to-right = +17
Right-to-left = +13
Thrust = +80

2h Polearms
Overhead = -15
Left-to-right = -7
Right-to-left = -2
Thrust = +19

1h Polearms
Thrust = +50

If you compare the poleaxe to say... a German GS you get this:

Overhead: GGS: 138 Poleaxe: 126 GGS wins
Left - to-right: GGS: 140 Poleaxe: 134 GGS wins (Quite small margain)
Right-to-left: GGS: 136 Poleaxe: 139 Poleaxe wins (Small margain)
Thrust: GGS: 203 Poleaxe: 160 GGS wins

So no, I'm completely in ther right regarding that.

High weight IS a minus.

A weapon's weight adds to your total weight as normal, with or without holding the weapon, for the purpose of the running speed reduction due to weight. Holding the weapon further decreases your running speed by an amount depending on the weight and length of the weapon. The running speed reduction due to holding a weapon is larger for heavier and longer weapons. Holding a 2 weight, 100 length weapon would slow you down more than holding a 1 weight, 100 length weapon. And holding a 2 weight, 100 length weapon would slow you down more than holding a 2 weight, 50 length weapon.

There is a more detailed quote from Paul somewhere but I couldn't find it.

But as I said, pole weight lies just above 2h, which generally means poles have the advantage there. Maybe material for a balance thread?

And I can do the instant turn-stabs just as well with my 2h alt as with my pole. You need to turn it further and realize that the tip of your weapon is not close to your character granted, but even with the old much slower stab I surprise-fragged Phyrex using that technique. Regarding glancing: Yes the 2h stab is easier to glance with if you're not careful, but that is simply due to it's length making it get stuck at places where you don't want it to, as said it you're not careful. But this is a tradeoff for any high-range attack. Have you ever seen how horrible the pole sideswings are when it comes to hitting stuff that's beside/behind you? And 2h sideswings have an overwhelmingly low zone of glancing.

Yes I'm biased, but so are you. And here really, i think you should look beyond the lobbying. Yes, poles have the polestagger which is utter bs, but you can hardly claim 2h useless weps (except for the 2h axes, they are idd pretty shite)

1. Where the hell did you get those numbers from
2. How come that I allways outranged Phyrex and GTX with a German Poleaxe then?

High weight is a minus? Sure thing that must be the reason why it increases when you loom some weapons....

"And 2h sideswings have an overwhelmingly low zone of glancing." It's pretty much the same as polearms have. 1h sideswings glance alot more though

You can do insta stabs? What?
You can't interrupt a pattern of your opponent with a 2h stab if you dont press s -start stabbing- press w. Look at Byrdi for instance. He just stabs and theres nothing you can do about it cause its alot faster than a sideswing of a greatsword could ever be. Ah and when it hits you you're almost dead cause it hits SO hard and staggers you which means another free hit on your opponent thus usually leading to opponents death.

Also : Horsestagger and Bonus against Shields.
None of them is available for any/any used 2h. but most of the polearms have it.
Where did I claim 2hs do be useless? 2h and 1h are nice to play with and everything, but polearms are just superior.

1. Those are in ToD's beginnner's guide. (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,9245.0.html, section 4)

2. Then they must have failed. Horribly.

High weight has both pro's and cons. But when combined with higher weapon length it becomes detrimental to your movespeed. Ideally you want short weapons to have high weight and long ones to have low, ever wondered why LHB users seem so much faster than most other polearmers?

And with proper timing, you can NEVER be outspammed. Never. I don't know if you personally have any issues with it, but I don't have any problems with the polestab. (Maybe because I'm more used to it and know exactly how it works) It is fast yes, but it doesn't break anything. Also remember that poles, just as every other weapon is subject to thruststun, so if he repeatedly tries to stab you just be patient and you will come out on top. This is how I beat agi-spearusers.

Horsestop is a pro for some of the longer polearms yes, but then poles due to animation don't have the length to outreach the lances. In general, fighting heavy cav as a pole is easier since you can stop them and get a few swings in, while fending of light cav is easier as a 2h since you can outrange the lance.

And Bonus against Shields is a trait given to polearms, probably as compenstation for lower weapon speed overall and the animations. It's nice to have yes, but honestly it's not that big of a deal. I rarely get to break shields when duelling shielders anyway.

I've tried all melee styles, and I wholeheartedly disagree about poles being superior. I've even done some "tests" with a few people where we duelled first on our mains (me pole, he/them 2h) and then switched over to our alts. Not a proper test in any way, but I did on average do better vs them when I used a 2h (mostly thanks to the reach and the stab). I would argue both 1h and 2h are superior for duelling, due to speed (1h, well 1h also have very confusing animations) and length (2h, also did you know that 1h with a length of 100 or more outreach every single attack of a poleaxe with the stab? Combined with the massive movespeed advantage attained from using a 1h and you quickly realize that 1h have a surprising amount of reach) but poles have unsurpassed versatility in battle.

1. so
2. sure

high weight is a +. the 1 weight that gla has more than a danish is incredible usefull in melee and nearly unrecognizable when it comes to running speed.

ofc you can be outspammed. dude wtf have you ever fought khorin? or even worse winterfell with his 9/30 build? ofc they can outspam you and it has NOTHING to do with timing.
its hard to block when you're already staggered thrice in a row by super duper fast warspear.

2h cant outrange great lance and heavy lance only when user fucks things up.

It is a big deal. It took me 4 hits to break a steel shield. FOUR hits. LOWER EWAPON SPEED? okidoki man. Long Axe has 93 Speed, which feels like 95 with a 2h and it still has Bonus against shields.

You're obviously delusional. There is abviosly nothing that can convince you to let go of your unsupported opinion of polearms being superior to everything else even though statistics point completely in the other direction.

I've duelled Khorin many times, and I don't get outspammed by him. Ask him.

And .1  more weight is is indeed useful, but the minor weight difference make stuns VERY rare and weaponstun does not equal autowin if you know what you're doing.

A 2h sure can outrange a heavy lance. Distance rider to the chest of horse is roughly 40. Do the math.

And yes, shieldbreakers are great for breaking high armor shields. But then, how many steel shields do you see around really?

And yes, the long axe has 93 weapon speed. But then it's also got a useless stab and horrible, horrible reach. Comparing speed to it would be like me comparing pole wep speed to the katana - not very fair hm?

I don't get it, I don't play 2h or 1h and I reconize neither as UP or OP, I don't get why you have such hatred fro poles, it doesn't make any sense.

I beg to differ.

How do you define outspamming? If you block 10 times before you hit then sure, there are ways to prevent being outspammed but this is probably not what you mean.
 
GLA has 1.0 more weight than Danish and you are able to stun it with every second attack.

A longspear/bamboo spear/pike can even outrange a great lance. Your point?

Dude what the hell seriously. It takes 4 hits to kill off a Steel Shield and mabye 4-5 to kill a huscarl shield. How many do you need for a ... knightly heater shield then? Do the math.

Stab is not useless, it can still stagger. Reach is decent enough to outreach any 1hander except LEE and Arabian Cav . WHAT? You were complaining about all shieldbreakers being sooooo slow what does it have to do with a Katana?

Ok. True story now. I've been a dedicated 2hander since November of 2009. Never bothered with anything else really. When I got to crpg (September 2010) I obviously went 2h. My highest achieved k/d with a 2hander was 4,5/1 last gen. Then I switched to polearms and my k/d exploded almost. Was 9,7/1 at the end. And most of the times I didn't even play serious cause there simply was no need to do so. My k/d with 1h now is like 3,3/1 with more looms and a higher level. How does this make no sense? They have been op since 2h stab nerf. And even if the range of was the same Polearms would still be op.

By outspamming I mean not being able to get an attack in after a block, assuming equal footwork and no weaponstun.

And I hardly believe the GLA stuns anything with "every second attack", I'd gladly test it.

Long spear/pike are 3-slot, 1 att dir weapons. Bamboo spear is 15 longer than a DGS on the stab and has only 2 att dir. Comparing to those weapons is not fair at all.

And how many hits a shield taes is very dependent on the shield skill of the user. Sheildbreakers have + 100% dmg vs. shields. It still takes me ~12-15 hits to break Kinngrim.

I said that in general shieldbreakers are slower than the comparable 2h. Poleaxe is slower than the GS's for example. You used a much shorter and faster example (Long Axe), and I say that is not a fair comparison, why I used the Katana as a counter-agument in your style.

About your K:D... I'm sorry but I don't believe you had a K:D of almost 10. That's ridiculous, even if you are a good player. (I think chase had something like 5 or 6 on his pole/2h chars)

Your lower K:D nowadays is most likely explained by the general increase in skill.

And I've duelled your polechar and you are not that good of a polearmer, but if this was before I was playing I can't speak of that (maybe ppl sucked hard back then?)

On my 2h alt I had slightly lower K:D than my polechar (2.3 vs. 2.7), but then that character has basically no equipment and was armed with a goedendag most of the time, even though I tried picking up stuff from the battlefield.

I have no idea why you are so convinced poles are OP, I look at statistics while you look at some personal conviction.

I'm not even bothering with replying to the whole post BUT theres one thing I want to state

"I have no idea why you are so convinced poles are OP, I look at statistics while you look at some personal conviction."
Danish :
weapon length: 124
weight: 2.5
difficulty: 15
speed rating: 92
weapon length: 124
thrust damage: 24 pierce
swing damage: 40 cut
slots: 2
Can't use on horseback
Secondary Mode

Poleaxe
weapon length: 141
weight: 3.2
difficulty: 17
speed rating: 89
weapon length: 141
thrust damage: 31 pierce
swing damage: 40 cut
slots: 2
Can't use on horseback
Bonus against Shield
Secondary Mode (usable with pole wpf)

Just sayin' daaawwg

As said, weight is both an up and downside. Also as said - look at LHB users.

And length... Didn't I already discuss this with you? A DGS outreaches a Poleaxe on all attacks except the pathertic leftswing where it gets beaten by 2, and which polearmers hardly use anyway because it's so shite.

The secondary mode on the poleaxe is better than the one on the DGS agreed, but it's still completely useless compared to the normal mode. Good for trolling, nothing else.

Danish :
weapon length: 124 (Animations)
weight: 2.5
difficulty: 15 (minor up tbh, but it does make the popular 15/24 build possible)
speed rating: 92
weapon length: 124
thrust damage: 24 pierce
swing damage: 40 cut
slots: 2
Can't use on horseback
Secondary Mode

Poleaxe
weapon length: 141
weight: 3.2
difficulty: 17
speed rating: 89
weapon length: 141
thrust damage: 31 pierce
swing damage: 40 cut
slots: 2
Can't use on horseback
Bonus against Shield
Secondary Mode (Useless anyway)

Now this is a more fair comparison, and it seems fairly balanced to me.

Ok for fucksake Dezi. Weight is a PLUS. There is a BIG BIG BIG plus and a TINY minus which sums up to a BIG plus.

That's why I didnt bold any part of it. Lets assume they are EVEN. That seems to be reasonable and fair.

Knockdown on a 140 length weapon isn't that useless.

You also forgot about Polestagger and that 7 pierce on stab is probably a bit more usefull than 3 speed points cause we both know that a LHB is way faster than a Danish even though they have the same speed rating.

Each to there own then. I value movespeed (a permanent plus) more than defence against weaponstun (a situational minus), but okay, each to their own.

Knockdown on a 140 length weapon is not useless... But with 27 blunt damage and a -4 speed reduction it is useless compared to the regular mode. And there is nothing the secondary can't do that the normal mode can. [Whoops, typo, was supposed to be the other way around]

Polestagger is retarded, as I've said many times. But then I could list a bunch of non-stat related advantages of 2h (mostly concerning animations), but I thought we were talking stats here.

And yes 7 pierce would prob be more useful... If the poleaxe had a 2h stab! The polestab works more like an additional swing

3 speed is nothing to scoff at. I notice the difference between a regular and a MW poleaxe... And that is a 1 speed difference.

And this idea of your of polearms being inherently faster, where'd you get that from? What have you got to prove it? I sure haven't noticed it and unless you actually got something to prove it, it just sounds like a load of bull to me.

Facepalm.

Polestagger is some kind of stat isnt it.

WHAT? like an additional swing? I'm beggining to doubt if you... meh I'm not going to insult you. Let me put it that way : What you just said is a load of bull. Period.

Ofc you notice a difference but it's not that much of a big deal really. It's a bit more than 1%, not really noticeable if you didn't knew the new stats really.

Tested it myself.

Also what Angantyr said. [This is referring to a forum post by Agantyr in the original topic]

The polearm stab serves like an additional swing in the sense that it doesn't provide massive reach in comparison to the actual swings. And it is much needed to compensate for the shitty pole leftswing and overhead.

Stagger is bull yeah, but then I could bring up other subtle 2h advantages like the leftswing and overhead.

Regarding speed: All I can say is that from my pov, weapon speed is damn important.

Oh and btw, haven't you consaidered something? you said that the LHB looks much faster than a DGS. There is one advantage the LHB has over a DGS, isn't it? Weight!

ok I'm giving it up. You're too ignorant. First you say that stab is shit, now you say the good stab is needed to compensate for the SHITTY leftswing and overhead? wtf man how is polearm leftswing a bad thing. way better than 2h.

and again how is 2h leftswing a advantage and why didnt you mention it earlier if its that important?

take the glaive then.

This turned into quite a conversation btw, mind me posting it for public display?

nop

[Memento_Mori]

Seriously give poles whatever seems necessary to compensate for removing pole stagger... I don't think anyone really finds pole stagger enjoyable, both as the victim or the user it's lame.

Though I highly doubt pole stagger will ever get removed or fixed or anything, devs are busy making glove's weight add more damage to punching & other super important stuff. 

[[ptx]]

Conclusion - Dezilagel is a biased polearm user, blackmilk is a biased 2h user.

My main has been a polearmer since early cRPG and i say Nay to speed increase after polestagger is gone.

[Gisbert_of_Thuringia]

I suppose you haven't read the other polestun thread

Tell you what, if one of you brings me the code to disable polestagger, I'll add it to the patch.

[Snoozer]

which one?theres been far more then just one lol

[Gisbert_of_Thuringia]

The big one in the suggestions corner started by Ujin a while ago^^

That was Cmp's last answer