"THE DEV MENACE" (A Satire On The 2H Mace Nerf).

[Zerran]

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This. Seriously, the weapon you use only has a slight effect on how well you'll do. Was in the duel server yesterday, highest ranked guy there was using a practice sword. And diversity is good, it lets people decide based on their own personal style rather than saying "Well, I like the style and looks of <weapon> better, but the mace's stats are better so I should go with that." Internal balance is important.

[seddrik]

"Diversity" = All weapons must be equally BAD?  Since when did a weapon that was NEVER on the top of the charts in such need of a nerf?  This kind of "balance" and "diversity" robs the game of its enjoyment.  Its main use was among hybrids/archers.  And even as a primary weapon it never over did it.  But hey, NERF IT ANYWAY for the sake of "internal balance"!  Lets forget the fun factor...

Practice sword is long and fast for a low level weapon, plus it has knock down.  I expect to see a nerf on it too eventually.
Short spear is really really fast & has a knock down.  I expect it to be nerfed sooner rather than later.

If the only thing that can allowed to be fast and effective for its level are high level weapons (and loomed ones), then just forget 90% of the players who are still regenning/leveling.  Just givem all sticks and have at it.

But none of this is new.  Please refer to Why is nerfing good for the game? to see the answer to your witless remarks of approval for this kind of nerf.

[Malaclypse]

Practice Longsword doesn't have knockdown. "Short" (I guess you mean Shortened) Spear doesn't have knockdown. Not sure what that part was all about.

When something is nerf'd it is all but useless, you know, like the toy guns of the same name. Mace is still plenty useful if a little slower. 98 speed with 28 blunt damage and knockdown, in 1 slot, unheirloomed; plus it's only difficulty 8, dang man, and 2 pounds to boot! Works great in game. Still not sure why you're calling a reduction a nerf.

It's just a change. The weapon isn't broken. If you're going to stop using a weapon you REALLY like because the stats changed a little bit then that sucks, I guess. I wouldn't unless it was an extremely drastic change, like removing 5 speed, 10 damage, 20 length, etc.

[seddrik]

Practice Longsword does knock down. I've used it and had it happen.  The spear, I meant pole stun.  Those weapons are used mostly by low level people seeking something to compensate for their low level.... Like the 2H mace was.  And rarely as a primary weapon by a higher level person for fun.  Obviously not many higher level characters used this due to obvious disadvantages compared to better weapons.  It was just fun to play as it was.

As has been noticed, it is now used even less.  Why was it necessary to "reduce" it?  Even if someone loomed it 3 times it was NEVER comparable to weapons used to top the boards.  No attempts have been made to answer this fact, if it has been addressed at all.  All arguments are simply subjective "balance" gibberish, "OP" nonsense, or such like.  WHY NERF?REDUCE?DIMINISH?DEFLATE? an already low level weapon that never was used to dominate?  The only thing it does is reduce the fun and enjoyment of low level players (regenning) and discourage hybrids/archers from melee.  The result of this nerf is to reveal the utterly unintelligent use of "balance" by DEVs and players alike.

If the argument that its a "minor change" or "still effective" ( (i.e. just as effective as before?) is true - then why did a previoius poster admit to seeing it used less now?  Obviously players who used it before see a difference.

Yes. I have stopped using it.  This one point of speed difference has reduced it to being inferior to other low level weapons out there.  I enjoyed the idea of having an uber short weapon as I leveled with which I could still MAYBE kill one or 2 guys.  Now... meh.  Devs get a clue please.

[Malaclypse]

I saw a difference in it's use. Use is based on player choice. Player's don't always choose sensibly, sometimes choosing not to use something simply because it was changed. Use is not directly indicative of effectiveness.

Why can archers no longer use it, exactly? They can. And effectively if they have some Power Strike. They are choosing not to, and I cannot see why, because the weapon plays fine. If it's just because they are accustomed to the weapon with 1 more speed, then I don't know what to say. I've played with all sorts of weapons, in Native and in cRPG, and 1 speed is extremely minor.  Oh my god, one of many weapons that I enjoy using was changed slightly, I am having NO FUN NOW? Are you serious?

Did it "need" to be changed? No, but nothing "needs" to be. There's another module out there that's basically static that you might enjoy, it's called Native. You won't have to worry about stat changes there, and it needs more players.

[seddrik]

Your comments are not new, and already addressed.  Please see my first post, the section on "To Mr Potato Head."  I see a definite likeness.

But just in case there are any lazy readers... and witless ones...
1. "simply because it was changed" - It was changed, for the worse.  A drop in use after a patch obviously indicates that people see it as less enjoyable and/or effective.  While SOME players run with theme characters, I dare say many (if not most) use what seems effective to them.
Unless you are ready to argue that a reduction in speed is a BENEFIT and not a DETRIMENT, your argument has FAILED.  Next!

2. One point in speed on paper surely doesn't look like much.  And on some weapons it may not affect them, because they have high damage or longer reach, or are commonly used by higher level players.  But on a very short weapon, with relatively little damage... it makes a world of difference.  So unless you are willing to argue that a reduction in speed is a BENEFIT, and not a DETRIMENT... then the argument FAILS.  Next!

3. I know hybrids who no longer use it, because not only was ranged nerfed (in recent paches) but now their back-up weapon has been too.  So, if ur primary AND secondary weapon has been "reduced" even "minorly", will you call that MORE enjoyable and effective or less?  Next!

Again, the focus of my arguments is that it was an incredibly unnecessary nerf.  It penalizes low levels and secondary users on an already weaker weapon, and takes away from a fun (tho already weaker) build even at high levels.

[[ptx]]

You are trying very hard to achieve the most butthurt user of the month award, aren't you? Might just win...

[Nagasoup]

I must say seddrik, I was very touched by the story of bobthenoob... how tragic 

Nerfing the 2h mace's stats has actually lowered the diversity of viable high level weapons in this game.

Sure, the nerf may have reduced it's usage as a side-arm for ranged players, but it also reduced its effectiveness as a primary weapon for high level players that actually LIKE the mace. I know I know, it's hard for some of you to imagine that there are 2h players that stray away from the generic greatsword swinging playstyle, but those players do exist. Yes, that's right, some meleers actually enjoy using the mace as a primary weapon, who would've thought?

As of now, expensive high end 2h swords outclass the short little mace, and as there are no similar high level weapons to replace the mace, it forces people who like that playstyle to switch weapons and become another generic greatsword user, REDUCING the diversity of weapons in this game.

So either add a high level weapon similar to the mace with higher cost and slot requirement, or undo the nerf to the mace.

[seddrik]

FINALLY!  An intelligent reply!  I am amazed and astounded.

Not only has the poster captured the essence of the problem, but he has offered an intelligent suggestion.  While it would still be sad to penalize levelers and ranged by making a similar (prenerf) weapon that is more expensive or that required more slots it would at LEAST allow the option of that style of fun and game play for a dedicated, higher level user (which at times I admit to having done with relish & ketchup).  It was fun that way, and also a great counter to speed spam players.  But alas... 'tis hindered and inferior now...

As for newer players and pre gen 18+ ones, most of the really good weapons are cost prohibitive since u r saving and buying gear (at least I am anyway).  Personally, I miss the days when you could just buy gear and play without the stupid repairs (which the Devs in all their wisdom have imposed upon us).  So much more fun facing MONSTER geared players who were level 40+, having to actually gang up on them to take them down... was epic fun.  Way more fun than enduring 16+ gens (to lvl 31 no less) of repeated peasantry just trying to GET gear enough to compete, and even then having to return to peasantry for hours just to save money up to play high gear again for an hour.  But still... I see that this suggestion is a step in the right direction, though I still plea for underdogs, newbs, and peons like BobTheNoob.

Plus, he sagely exposes how the nerf actually reduced the variety in gameplay.

And most importantly of all!  He liked my story. (cough)

So to Nagasoup, I will say:  BRAVO!

[Malaclypse]

If I walked into cRPG (with a knowledge of basic game mechanics) without ever having known the past behind the Mace, I could not see any reason to think the Mace was a bad weapon.

That is the main point I am attempting to make. Remove nostalgic bias and it's fine.

I've been using this thing on multiple characters just to see if there was anything inherently bad about it, and I'm stumped. If I'm looking at it stat-wise, it's still superior to or equal with the majority of one-handed blunt counterparts, with a much lower difficulty. It's more than one thousand gold cheaper than Iberian Mace which has extremely similar stats outside of difficulty (+1 speed -1 length -5 difficulty, everything else identical) and it uses two-hand animations to boot. If anything it should cost more as well as the speed reduction, because it's still a beastly piece of equipment comparatively, if you're looking at it that way- in terms of internal item balance, which for an unfinished mod, a changing and developing mod, is a good way to look at it in my opinion. Though admittedly, as Shine nailed on page one, not looking at what people enjoy and are attached to when balancing items has drawbacks:

I think mace nerf was justified simply because it was too good for its price and stats and being 1 slot.  Ironically though mace is rarely used outside of ranged sidearm, so it was melee/ranged hybrids who were hurt the most from this chance.

Having said that, I've been having about as much fun using it and faring about as well as I usually do with any other gear. Maybe it's just because I enjoy the sum of the game more than any single element , I don't know. None of my toons currently have any proficiency in two-handed weapons, so I honestly cannot swing it any slower than I am now, and I'm having no trouble keeping up in the normal block/hit paradigm, except where it's my own mistake, trying something fancy like a double swing, feint, chamber or kick and failing.

Anyhow, to address your argument directly, yeah, it was unnecessary in one sense, but necessary in another. Considering that the goal of the dev team is to create a balanced mod and the idea of balance is something which can be largely subjective, the change may be totally necessary in one sense, and not at all in another.

Look, I know there's a nostalgia factor. We're creatures of habit. We like what we know. We want the things we love to not change. We all want Bar Mace and Morningstar to have Crushthrough again, and the pain of their loss... it keeps us awake at night, mad nerds for we are. I want the old xp system back. I would like my buckler to have a crazy dumb forcefield again. I want to stab through the ground with my sword while spinning 1080 degrees to kill five people. The old hammer model was way cuter. I should be able to bring a huscarl, a one hand, and two-two handed weapons to the fight. I can't halfsword really fast to make it look like I'm jerking it. I'm a man and I can't wear a dress. My hair isn't pink anymore. I miss being pinpoint accurate with a bow whose arrows shot on a laser guided path, sometimes. I miss REAL peasants. It'd be cool to have that 100xp a gen bonus back, and it was nice when looming gave a little more benefit; these are the things that haunt our dreams at night. It is my hope that we'll get up anyway, and we will play again, bravely, with grace and camaraderie, where we shed our attachments to numbers and things, and stand, together, united in our love of the game over all else, I have sunk the thing! \o/

[seddrik]

Well. Malaclypse, I can appreciate your reply.  It actually was witty!!!!!!!!!  Even though I disagree a bit with your conclusion.

"a beastly piece of equipment comparatively" - Eh.  Not really ever considered it beastly.  I understand the mace was "better" than others of its level.  But it NEVER excelled on the scoreboards by itself.  There were NEVER any users who rocked the crpg world by using it alone.  The ONLY argument for nerfing it was some subjective, mystical, magical argument for "internal game balance" or such like.  In reality it robbed low level players of a needed degree of ability.

Is it still usable? sure.  Is it AS usable, does it have the edge it had that made it really fun to play? I think the decrease in use by players shows it no longer has that.  The game is going from FUN to just grinding with pathetic excuses for weapons until ONE DAY you get enough loomed gear AND get to level past 31 to compete... which takes quite a while.  I get BORED playing just one character with one class for months.  I want FUN options for weapons at all levels, not just when I will someday get maxed gear and higher levels.  I have alts, none of which can purchase looms off the market to speed the process.  So removing / diminishing weapons that are actually FUN (tho not even anywhere NEAR dominating) is a real destruction of the enjoyment of the game.

The argument that the mace was "too good for its price and stats and being 1 slot" is very subjective.  I would much rather see MORE weapons of better quality like it than less.  It would make lower levels and other options more playable/fun.  I'm more interested in a FUN GAME than an "internally balanced" game.  Aren't you?  (SHOUTS:  HEY DEVs DID YOU HEAR THAT??? FUN IS MOAR IMPOTANT!!)

You mention enjoying the sum of the game more than any single element.  Thats probably part of it.  I know I die a lot no matter what I use.  but I found that the mace allowed me to play with a little better survival rate formerly.  But now, as in my story of BobTheNoob, even with a 2H build I get half the measely few kills I did get with it before due to this adjustment.  I know, I know.  People troll saying thats crutching on the weapon.  But we have all seen it.  A guy rocking the boards with loomed gear takes his gear off and does average or not nearly as well.  Gear DOES affect gameplay, though people deny it in their ever so egotistical declarations of expertise.  Some people of course are better than others, and you haven't been a regular user of that mace.  So u may not see the difference it makes to others who use it leveling or as a backup weapon, or even as an occasional primary weapon. 

I quote:  "Anyhow, to address your argument directly, yeah, it was unnecessary in one sense, but necessary in another. Considering that the goal of the dev team is to create a balanced mod and the idea of balance is something which can be largely subjective, the change may be totally necessary in one sense, and not at all in another."

Yes.  The mysterious goals of the DEV team... highly subjective.  Not necessary yet still somehow necessary.  Thats the whole point of my thread.  : P  I'm not against ALL nerfs.  If something obviously dominated the game based on stats, then fine "balance it".  But the 2H mace was NOTHING anywhere NEAR any such concern.  If it isn't broken... why "fix" it?  Thus, I blame the Eviiiiiillllll Devs for their destruction of the fun of the game in this and similar pointless (in a practical game mechanics way) nerfs.  Ha! Ha!  Malaclypse you have sustained my point that the Devs are deviously masterminding the destruction of this game!  Admit it! You see it too!  You may have hope to enjoy the game still, but you as much as admitted that many nerfs have happened that have diminished the entertainment value of the game!

And finally, I commend you on your witty reply.  Finally people are cluing in on what I have been warning about.  If a reply is made that is totally witless, I shall thoroughly demean and denounce the thoughtless contribution!  Give not just emotional and baseless argument!  Nor give dry and boring replies!  Be witty!  Or be ridiculed!

I still maintain my premise:  Devs are destroying fun, for the sake of so called "balance"; even when there was no real imbalance!

[Elmokki]

I used mace quite a bit last gen as a 21/21 twohander build - though I used a lot of Langes Messer, Fighting Axe and Goedendag too.  The mace itself wasn't overpowered at all with those stats, the fact that it only takes 1 slot was - when you didn't want to take ANY onehanded mace instead of it regardless of price as a sidearm there seriously was something wrong.

Basically the best solution would've been to separate it as a twoslotter with the stats it had (it was cheap enough to warrant it being "bad" 2 slotter) and oneslotter with stats around what they are now. Or they could've just made it 2 slot without adding a substitute. There are tons of onehanders for sidearms already anyway.

So yeah, a nerf was very much warranted, but I don't know if it was the right one.

[Zlisch_The_Butcher]

It was ALMOST fine before... needed to be two-slot, as there were a lot of worse two-handers which were oneslot, and infact this was the only 2slot two-hander, but besides from that it is fine.

Also: Unnerf throwing you bastards!

[seddrik]

I could almost agree with making it 2 slot and restore the speed to 99, just to allow the dedicated 2 hander the option of a fun (tho obviously weaker) weapon.  It would still really rob the hybrids of a useful weapon (again it was NEVER over powered anyway...herp derp).  The reason I don't like the short spear for a backup weapon on hybrids is that the stupid thing blocks my view when I shoot... lol.

Honestly, something I've seen rarely are one handed weapon users going NON-shield for speed.  People think the ol' 2h mace was fast and "too much"?  Dude, go one hand Flanged Mace and see how fast THAT is if you have wpf in it too....  and it costs 1000g less than 2h mace... When u gonna nerf THAT Devs? huh huh huh?  Or what about one handers with over 100 speed at low levels... thats "too fast" (I cry big tears see?) Where will "internal balance" end?

I agree Throwing has been really hurt.  My dedicated thrower is garbage now.  24str 8 PT... and TWO throwing lances (IF they even hit someone) can't kill average things.  Evviiiilllll Devs.......


And LOL!!!!! I've been given a new rank! HAHAHAHAH!!!!! that's so hilarious.  Who did that?  lol  GG whoever did it.   

[Meow]

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